|
Your donations keep RPGWatch running!
RPGWatch Forums » Games » General RPG » Things I miss about modern RPGs

Default Things I miss about modern RPGs

August 10th, 2018, 16:23
So many long posts… so here's a short one:
Things I miss: the heart and soul of a game developer
All I see nowadays is a huge pile of asset (graphics, text, sound, code) developed by a huge pile of indifferent people.
duerer is offline

duerer

Sentinel

#21

Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 418
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)

Default 

August 10th, 2018, 19:06
Yep it's me again so here we go.

Not having to log onto to a server just play the SP RPG campaign.

So long I'm outta here.

No wait death to all Co-op RPGs as well.
--
"Troll Make Internet Mad, Troll Like Anger, Troll wants people as miserable as Troll"

Check out my RPG News Thread usually updated daily.
Couchpotato is offline

Couchpotato

Couchpotato's Avatar
Grumpy Old Troll

#22

Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: New England
Posts: 17,614
Mentioned: 10 Post(s)

Default 

August 10th, 2018, 19:49
Originally Posted by Fnord View Post
I get what you mean here, but I don't miss the things you used as examples I like secrets and puzzles, but I hate untelegraphed secrets, in particular the ones that you "need" to find in order to progress. Pressing up against a wall until it lets me through is not something I enjoy at all. And I never liked things that were just there to disorient you, like spinners in a first person dungeon crawler that you have to map out by hand.

The big thing that I would like to see dropped from modern games are quest markers. With good level design, and proper quest descriptions, you don't need quest markers. But so many games seem to just say "Go and kill X and bring me Y", it does not describe how to find the thing. To me being given a quest, with a proper description is a big part of the immersion.
I kind of agree, but also disagree a bit. I think DOS and DOS2 did quite a good job here. They clearly indicated what your goal is, and pointed you into the direction, but the solution itself was up to you (and which of the solutions you choose). And DOS1/2 being the games which do it best in my opinion and are rather new, I also can't quite say that I miss that from old games. Old games often did not even have a journal and you didn't even know wether you are supposed to follow something up. I can understand the appeal due to better immersion (by not showing you what is actually a quest, you can imagine that everything can be a quest), but I am past that naivity and instead constantly think "What did the developer expect from me at this point?". So yeah, I am most happy with getting a general direction, knowing the goal and then try to figure out how to get there myself.
--
Doing >Let's Plays< and >Reviews< in German. Latest Review: Avernum 3: Ruined World
Mostly playing Indie titles, including Strategy, Tactics and Roleplaying-Games.
And here is a list of all games I ever played.
Kordanor is offline

Kordanor

Kordanor's Avatar
Wastelander

#23

Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,171
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)

Default 

August 10th, 2018, 23:08
Originally Posted by Kordanor View Post
I kind of agree, but also disagree a bit. I think DOS and DOS2 did quite a good job here. They clearly indicated what your goal is, and pointed you into the direction, but the solution itself was up to you (and which of the solutions you choose). And DOS1/2 being the games which do it best in my opinion and are rather new, I also can't quite say that I miss that from old games. Old games often did not even have a journal and you didn't even know wether you are supposed to follow something up. I can understand the appeal due to better immersion (by not showing you what is actually a quest, you can imagine that everything can be a quest), but I am past that naivity and instead constantly think "What did the developer expect from me at this point?". So yeah, I am most happy with getting a general direction, knowing the goal and then try to figure out how to get there myself.

I do like journals The best scenario for me is when you've got a journal that gives you good directions (and directions that are not just purely from where the quest giver is, but from say the city gate). So something like Baldur's Gate, or post patch Morrowind is nice (pre-patch Morrowind has one of the worst journals ever though).
Fnord is offline

Fnord

Fnord's Avatar
SasqWatch

#24

Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Posts: 1,737
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
+1:

Default 

August 11th, 2018, 00:57
repetition and iteration is how good gameplay occurs.
aweigh is offline

aweigh

Watcher

#25

Join Date: Dec 2015
Posts: 37
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)

Default 

August 11th, 2018, 01:29
Yeah, quest markers are often used as more of a shortcut to tell people where to go without explaining it - but then there's a lot of people that are in such a hurry to get to the next thing that taking TEN WHOLE SECONDS to read some text causes rage. Or they are trying to play the game while watching whatever social media they do - it's hard to follow written directions with one eye while your other eye is reading about what one of your 90 friends had for breakfast today.

Personally, though, I don't mind them. Especially if the character I'm playing has lived in the region and thus would know where the Dancing Pony Inn is way better than me. Even if the markers aren't justified, though, it just means I'm going to need to find my fun in another part of the game instead of getting a little exploration fun.
--
The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common: instead of altering their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit their views….
-- Doctor Who in "Face of Evil"
Zloth is offline

Zloth

Zloth's Avatar
I smell a… wumpus!?

#26

Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Kansas City
Posts: 5,587
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)

Default 

August 11th, 2018, 03:31
Originally Posted by Zloth View Post
Personally, though, I don't mind them. Especially if the character I'm playing has lived in the region and thus would know where the Dancing Pony Inn is way better than me. Even if the markers aren't justified, though, it just means I'm going to need to find my fun in another part of the game instead of getting a little exploration fun.
Hmm. What if an RPG had quest markers & fully detailed maps in the starting town / area, to signify that your character was very familiar with the area, but the quest / map markers went away as you ventured further into new areas so you have to rely more on directions from NPCs?

And, then I suppose recruiting party members from another town / area would again allow you to get more quest / map markers. Would probably drive a lot of players mad, but I'd appreciate the "realism" of it. I think whether or not there's quest markers should really be determined by if it makes sense that you know exactly where to go. I don't like having my hand held, but I don't like wandering around blindly either. Following clues can be great fun though and that is something like is lacking in a lot of RPGs… and often too simplistic / shallow in others (like the Witcher senses).
--
Currently Playing: Heroine's Quest, Quest For Infamy, Planescape: Torment
daveyd is offline

daveyd

daveyd's Avatar
Turn-based lifeform

#27

Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: PA
Posts: 1,590
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)

Default 

August 11th, 2018, 10:54
Originally Posted by daveyd View Post
Hmm. What if an RPG had quest markers & fully detailed maps in the starting town / area, to signify that your character was very familiar with the area, but the quest / map markers went away as you ventured further into new areas so you have to rely more on directions from NPCs?

And, then I suppose recruiting party members from another town / area would again allow you to get more quest / map markers. Would probably drive a lot of players mad, but I'd appreciate the "realism" of it. I think whether or not there's quest markers should really be determined by if it makes sense that you know exactly where to go. I don't like having my hand held, but I don't like wandering around blindly either. Following clues can be great fun though and that is something like is lacking in a lot of RPGs… and often too simplistic / shallow in others (like the Witcher senses).
I don't remember this ever being done but it certainly is not a bad idea …
Pladio is offline

Pladio

Pladio's Avatar
Guardian of Nonsense
RPGWatch Donor
Original Sin Donor

#28

Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Manchester, United Kingdom
Posts: 5,907
Mentioned: 20 Post(s)
Send a message via MSN to Pladio

Default 

August 11th, 2018, 13:50
I don't think I really miss anything, maybe characters free of modern feminism/sjw crap and Gothic's attitude to PC, when you start as weakling, can be robed and beaten by NPCs, when no one cared about you and every NPC had their own life, but that was just 1 game like that.

But what I really "miss"' is INNOVATION, new progressive ideas, moving forward and stop vegetate on nostalgia for once and all!
Zogar Sag is offline

Zogar Sag

Zogar Sag's Avatar
Watchdog

#29

Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 129
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)

Default 

August 11th, 2018, 19:35
Originally Posted by Dragonfly View Post
Difficult dungeons
I read some review for Two Worlds 2 that called that game's dungeons, "monster closets" referring to what you describe… fairly linear corridors that pretty much guide you through from beginning to end for the purpose, essentially, to kill a few monsters. "Monster Closets" is a term however that could be applied to most modern cRPG dungeons. Even Witcher 3's dungeons were "monster closets."

Personally, I'd prefer an open world cRPG with just a handful of dungeons that were large and were actual places with meaning and purpose. The dungeons themselves would be a world to their own where you could spend hours in them, get lost, solve problems, find meaningful treasures. Dungeons where just finding them would be an adventure itself. Along the way to finding them, you'd pick up lore about them, building up the danger, and the possible rewards. For a fleeting moment, Blackreach in Skyrim began to fill such shoes. As it turned out, Blackreach was pretty much a boring big open space to collect a few nirnroots in. You could miss that place entirely and it made no difference. Too bad, it had such potential.

Originally Posted by Dragonfly View Post
-Resource management in times of trouble
I remember the days when inventories were very limited, while you had quite a way to go between locations. You had to buy potions carefully. Too few, and you would get into trouble.
What you describe was a big part of the early Ultima (4 & 5 particularly), Wizardry, and Bard's Tale game dungeon romps. I always ran out of resources trying to get to the bottom of dungeons in U4-5… I can't remember for sure but I'm fairly certain I never made it to the bottom of one the first try due to resource mismanagement.

At the time it was frustrating. But over all these decades, developers have served up big helpings of "you'll be awesome no matter where you go and when you go there" (aka scaling) which has taken away that sense of progression, accomplishment, and feeling of power over things that once owned you.

IMHO, to this day, it's still the Might and Magic games that delivered mastery in this area. Every step of the way in those games you can incrementally improve some aspect of your characters from gear, to stats, to skills and abilities from the start of the game to nearly the very end of them. Everywhere you go in those games you will find something meaningful that will increase your power, but not too much and a good spanking is probably right around the next corner. But those ogres who threw you out of their cave a few hours back, it might just be time to re-pay them a visit.
--
If I'm right but there is no wife around to acknowledge it, am I still right?
TheMadGamer is offline

TheMadGamer

TheMadGamer's Avatar
SasqWatch
Original Sin Donor

#30

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Oregon
Posts: 2,674
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
+1:

Default 

August 11th, 2018, 19:46
Originally Posted by Kordanor View Post
I kind of agree, but also disagree a bit [regarding quest markers].
I'm in the same boat. I'd rather there are no quest markers. But the game would have to somehow provide you with enough information for you to reasonably find it.

I recently played Assassin's Creed Origins (not an RPG but an action/adventure game with quests nonetheless). The game world is giant and the conversations and quest log are brevity personified. There is no way to play that game and solve "quests" without those markers and I wouldn't want to, the world is just way too big and not interesting enough to explore for hours just to do some quest that's not all that interesting anyway (by RPG standards).
--
If I'm right but there is no wife around to acknowledge it, am I still right?
TheMadGamer is offline

TheMadGamer

TheMadGamer's Avatar
SasqWatch
Original Sin Donor

#31

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Oregon
Posts: 2,674
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)

Default 

August 11th, 2018, 20:00
Yep. For a quest "find the hidden lever in the room", a quest marker can point to the room you need to search the lever in, but it shouldn't highlight the lever for you as this would kill the fun of actually doing the quest.

The quest pointing needs to find a good spot in between.
--
Doing >Let's Plays< and >Reviews< in German. Latest Review: Avernum 3: Ruined World
Mostly playing Indie titles, including Strategy, Tactics and Roleplaying-Games.
And here is a list of all games I ever played.
Kordanor is offline

Kordanor

Kordanor's Avatar
Wastelander

#32

Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,171
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)

Default 

August 11th, 2018, 21:12
A challenge, builds that matter, dangerous dungeons, good combat, tasks that require any kind of thinking.

On the other hand, I have to admit that now a days, I kind of enjoy light entertainment which you can just click through like the Witcher 3 which I am still playing ( since forever, it is enormous with expansions! ). As I don't have any time to really invest in a real RPG right now.

I promise it is only a phase though!
GothicGothicness is offline

GothicGothicness

GothicGothicness's Avatar
SasqWatch

#33

Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 6,030
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)

Default 

August 11th, 2018, 23:55
I don't like quest markers at all, but many of them older RPGs were impossible without a walkthrough or running around frustrated for hours.

One thing I miss that isn't as prevalent in modern RPGs is the feeling that you're just a regular person. People just minding their own business and not caring about you.
Silver Coin is offline

Silver Coin

Silver Coin's Avatar
Keeper of the Watch

#34

Join Date: Jun 2018
Posts: 730
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
+1:

Default 

August 12th, 2018, 00:30
Originally Posted by Silver Coin View Post
One thing I miss that isn't as prevalent in modern RPGs is the feeling that you're just a regular person. People just minding their own business and not caring about you.
I am not sure there were ever that many games like that to begin with. But I'd like to see more of those as well. Like in the Realms of Arkania Series for example.
--
Doing >Let's Plays< and >Reviews< in German. Latest Review: Avernum 3: Ruined World
Mostly playing Indie titles, including Strategy, Tactics and Roleplaying-Games.
And here is a list of all games I ever played.
Kordanor is offline

Kordanor

Kordanor's Avatar
Wastelander

#35

Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,171
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)

Default 

August 12th, 2018, 02:39
I'd agree with that, I would much rather prefer to be a joe shmoe average guy wandering the world having adventures rather than some sodding, "chosen one". I'm always happier with a low profile.
Carnifex is offline

Carnifex

SasqWatch

#36

Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Ormond Beach, FL.
Posts: 6,858
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)

Default 

August 14th, 2018, 17:49
Originally Posted by duerer View Post
So many long posts… so here's a short one:
Things I miss: the heart and soul of a game developer
All I see nowadays is a huge pile of asset (graphics, text, sound, code) developed by a huge pile of indifferent people.
My personal guess is rather that the developing company's top rather wants them to be indifferent - or, just for survival, because even game developers need money to buy bread and water, they follow the trail of money.

Result is a rather uniform gaming … well, not only one platform, but maybe even several platforms.
--
“ Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius – and a lot of courage – to move in the opposite direction.“ (E.F.Schumacher, Economist, Source)
Alrik Fassbauer is offline

Alrik Fassbauer

Alrik Fassbauer's Avatar
TL;DR
Original Sin 1 & 2 Donor

#37

Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Old Europe
Posts: 17,947
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)

Default 

August 15th, 2018, 18:26
Originally Posted by Darth Tagnan View Post
The one thing I miss the most isn't so much a result of modern CRPGs, but the result of the rise of the Internet.

I miss not knowing ANYTHING about a game before it's released - and I miss the personal discovery that you get when you sit down with a game that no one else has ever talked about - and in which features exist that you have absolutely no idea will be a part of the game.

The mystery of a game is definitely what I miss the most, and which I consider one of the biggest losses in modern gaming.

Beyond that, I miss developers catering to passionate fans before they cater to the mainstream.

Meaning, developers who made their mechanics very intricate because they knew that's what the fans liked - and where you had to invest in both mechanics and gameplay to be able to succeed. A truly challenging game is something of a rarity these days - and the games that have challenge tend to cater to a smaller audience, because the mainstream won't accept it.

We do get some of that with indie games, true - but even the indie games tend to appeal wide when they can.

Also, I really miss the days when "AAA" developers had the balls to take more chances.

That said, I don't begrudge anyone any of this. This is just the natural result of the market becoming so large - and publishers having to please whatever amount of shareholders and what not.
Agreed on all points here.

Last year I went back to an older, lesser known title and relived that sense of discovery I used to experience in the past. It's not one the media covers often, and you're unlikely to see it in any "Top X" lists because it doesn't generate clicks and isn't instantly recognized by the general gaming public.

But after a lengthy playthrough from start to finish (including all side quests), it instantly became one of my top favorites. I took a few months to debate whether it was the honeymoon phase appreciation I had for it, or the air of mystery surrounding the game. It turned out to be just an honest, beautiful game, and not hearing or knowing anything about it really, really helped. A year later and it still remains among the top.

Additionally, developers prioritizing customer and fan concerns is another thing I miss. As Darth already stated, you're more likely to encounter that among indie developers, but even their games can draw a massive following and change in direction as a result. My love for an indie title dropped off once it became too big and the lead developer no longer was involved in the project. Updates and future content were passed to the (at the time) new employees who had their own vision for the game, and fan suggestions grew less important.

Still, fan priority does seem more consistent among them. I can name a number of indie titles off the top of my head in which I would continuously praise the developers for quality-of-life changes requested by fans. AAA games seem much less open to this in my experience, and for good reason - who would want to wade through thousands of requests, most of which are probably nonsensical?

And finally, I also attribute this to the rise of the internet, something I've personally cited many times in other boards of discussion. It's been both a curse and a blessing. Thankfully, the internet has helped shift my focus toward indie developers which is often where I rediscover that magic again and again.

Edit: Two other major points I wanted to make regarding older games. Firstly, limited space forced the developers to get really creative and use neat little tricks to go beyond their boundaries. Nowadays there aren't many space limitations, so developers are not pushed as hard to come up with some creative ideas.

Secondly, graphics. Games are much more detailed than they have ever been. At the same time, however, I feel that less and less is left up to player imagination to fill the gaps. I think imagination is critical in allowing the player to personalize their experience.
--
~Watching since 2007~
Last edited by Ragnaris; August 15th, 2018 at 19:05.
Ragnaris is offline

Ragnaris

Ragnaris's Avatar
Sentinel

#38

Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: California, USA
Posts: 309
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)

Default 

August 18th, 2018, 21:16
Dungeons is a clear problem in modern RPG, or most of them. But it seems also very hard to sell nowadays.

For inventory management and expedition design, even in past most RPG didn't worked well on that aspect. Like food/ration system in M&M becoming quickly just insignificant. But also the scarcity of resource, I don't even see any RPG that could ensure it along a full play.

EDIT: What I miss from oldies? It's not clear.

I think now no matter the design aspect, I have seen a modern RPG that did better than any old RPG (I played):
- Quests design: DOS
- Puzzling: DOS, Legend of Grimrock
- Combats: DAO, ME2&3, MEA, ELEX (close combat only), Dragonfall, MMX, Wasteland 2, and many more.
- Alternate paths: Tyranny
- Consequences of Choices: The Witcher 1
- Writing Quality: The Witcher 1, but also many more as Dragonfall or Tyranny. and many other as old RPG was a bit average on the writing.
- Exploration: some DAI areas like with the giants
- Classes design, PoE1&2
- Companions, many Bioware RPG
- Crafting design, MEA, Tyranny
- Magic system, Tyranny
- And so on.
Last edited by Dasale; August 18th, 2018 at 21:36.
Dasale is offline

Dasale

SasqWatch

#39

Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,711
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
+1:

Default 

August 18th, 2018, 23:55
hmm… everything ?

Between dumbed down mechanics and SJW Stories there is nothing left to enjoy for me.
Fenris is offline

Fenris

Fenris's Avatar
Böser Onkel

#40

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Franconia
Posts: 508
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
RPGWatch Forums » Games » General RPG » Things I miss about modern RPGs
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

All times are GMT +2. The time now is 08:29.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.10
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright by RPGWatch