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September 12th, 2019, 16:03
Originally Posted by purpleblob View Post
*GASP*
Tell me about it. 🙂

Originally Posted by lackblogger View Post
Are Baldur's Gate games superior to recent Piranha Bites games?
They're superior to *all* recent games.
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September 12th, 2019, 18:47
Not sure why anyone would want to compare Baldurs Gate to any games from Piranha portfolio, but ok. Only similarity I can see is how both companies went downhill road after finishing their masterpieces.
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September 12th, 2019, 18:54
Someone who likes RPGs and never played BG is WRONG. Correct this mistake asap, my friend.
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September 12th, 2019, 21:45
If people pressure you to play something - avoid it at all cost.
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September 12th, 2019, 22:17
Originally Posted by lostforever View Post
I liked NWN2 as well by Obsidian but never played their expansion. NWN2 was not good as NWN but still a good game.

I have not played the NWN MMO as I hear its crap tonn of micro transactions.

Is there any other types of NWN?
Actually yes, there was also the NWN from 1991 which was a multiplayer online game hosted on AOL.
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September 12th, 2019, 23:16
I'm 47 years old and I played pretty much every well known pc RPG as and when it came out. Whilst both were good games I think that people tend to view things like Baldur's Gate and Gothic with rose tinted nostalgia spectacles. Gothic had poor graphics even for its time and they were also pretty janky in places and neither game has aged well visually. Also the combat was pretty basic so in that and the well thought story elements I suppose it is not dissimilar to Greedfall. Times have moved on and much less is left to the imagination than it used to be. This means that writing is far more complex today than it was when either of those games were made. Some people are into the retro gaming thing but I, for the most part, am not. Things have moved on for a reason and you can't seriously compare some pixels or block filled shapes with the artistry required to make modern eye candy any more than you can the writing or dialogue. Also, gamers today are far more demanding and thankless and will randomly trash games for a single fault.

I don't class anything RECENT by Bioware as particularly good - they stopped being Bioware when they were brought in-house by the money grabbers at Electronic Arts. The only reason I mentioned Bioware in my review at all was that both user reviews and journalistic ones sought to compare Greedfall to Bioware games en masse. Personally I think that all RPGs should be considered solely on their own merits and faults without bandying around other games to be used as a yardstick. Just because I think there are things in..let's say…Pathfinder: Kingmaker or Kingdom Come: Deliverance that show real advances in isometric and 3rd/first person RPGs respectively it doesn't make it any more or less helpful to dredge up every other past RPG for comparison whether that be to say they are better or worse than games from a completely different time.

As an aside, what made NWN for me was more about the community and community content that sprang up around it and I have not seen such a good mix of online and single-player content since. The fact that companies would rather keep online and multiplayer separate entities so they can continually milk money from their MMOs means we are unlikely to see anything quite like NWN, and the community response to it, again.

*edit* NWN2 was far less dark than the original and its expansions and far shorter - when it came out I hated it. Mask of the Betrayer and the modules that followed completely changed it. So to have played NWN2 without its expansions is almost not to have played it at all.
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Last edited by MrMuse; September 12th, 2019 at 23:36.
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September 12th, 2019, 23:20
How do you perform a thrust during melee combat? Is it completely random?
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September 13th, 2019, 00:17
Originally Posted by MrMuse View Post
*snip*
Whilst both were good games I think that people tend to view things like Baldur's Gate and Gothic with rose tinted nostalgia spectacles.
Do you realise some of us still play BG games and view it superior to most of the recent games? I'm not sure how that's rose tinted view.

Times have moved on and much less is left to the imagination than it used to be. This means that writing is far more complex today than it was when either of those games were made.
I disgaree - the graphics have improved significantly but can't say same with the writing quality.

Things have moved on for a reason and you can't seriously compare some pixels or block filled shapes with the artistry required to make modern eye candy any more than you can the writing or dialogue.
Things don't always move on for the better. Also, the whole debate with "beautiful" 3D graphics vs "blocky" pixels is up to individual's judgement/preferance.

I'm just glad that gamers now days get a good mix of "modern" and "retro-inspired" games.

Still upset I'm missing out on Greedfall experience (at least it seems so for now) but there are still other games I can enjoy without suffering motion sickness.

So… I'm off to play Kingmaker and Dark Souls 3.

(I wonder where joxer is, was hoping to get his impression on Greedfall as well)
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September 13th, 2019, 02:38
@purpleblob and others.

There is a mod on Nexus that removes head bobbing. It doesn't fix everything but in the comments there are some interesting notes on how to edit the camera and seems like it won't be long till someone fixes most of the motion issues:

https://www.nexusmods.com/greedfall/mods/8

I don't need it thankfully - I read in cars and even on the treadmill. Never had much issue with it, for which I am appreciative.
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September 13th, 2019, 03:03
"I disgaree - the graphics have improved significantly but can't say same with the writing quality."

pfft. There is a story in BG but quests have no complex interplay with it and the "writing" is almost non existent. You get some nonsensical dialogue here and there and a bit at each "chapter" and that's it. Spiderweb games are better written than BG was never mind the newer stuff. And the graphics are barely tolerable today. Also the sound - modern games tend to be fully voiced rather than some irritating smeg running around saying nothing but "heya" and another that sounds like a bad schwarzenegger impersonator saying "Go for the eyes Boo". So play it or not you can't seriously compare it on a like for like basis (with no context to the fact that it IS old) to something like Kingmaker and still say..yeah BG is amazing. Notice I used the word 'is' there not 'was'. So my point was not that old games can't still be enjoyed, not even that new games are better - it's YOU who have thrown this in with an assumption as to what I was saying just by mentioning Bioware at all. Which I have already explained.
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September 13th, 2019, 03:13
Originally Posted by wolfgrimdark View Post
@purpleblob and others.

There is a mod on Nexus that removes head bobbing. It doesn't fix everything but in the comments there are some interesting notes on how to edit the camera and seems like it won't be long till someone fixes most of the motion issues:

https://www.nexusmods.com/greedfall/mods/8

I don't need it thankfully - I read in cars and even on the treadmill. Never had much issue with it, for which I am appreciative.
Thanks, I did see that mentioned in one of the discussion thread, I might wait a few more weeks to see if devs include option to disable some of the camera effects before trying the game out with this mod.

Originally Posted by MrMuse View Post
"I disgaree - the graphics have improved significantly but can't say same with the writing quality."

pfft. There is a story in BG but quests have no complex interplay with it and the "writing" is almost non existent. You get some nonsensical dialogue here and there and a bit at each "chapter" and that's it. Spiderweb games are better written than BG was never mind the newer stuff. And the graphics are barely tolerable today. So play it or not you can't seriously compare it on a like for like basis (with no context to the fact that it IS old) to something like Kingmaker and still say..yeah BG is amazing. Notice I used the word 'is' there not 'was'. So my point was not that old games can't still be enjoyed, not even that new games are better - it's YOU who have thrown this in with an assumption as to what I was saying just by mentioning Bioware at all. Which I have already explained.
You are certainly entitled to your opinion

See my signature? That's right - even though I love Kingmaker, I still think BG2 is a better game than it (including writing, yes). But I'm not going to continue this discussion further since: 1. this is a subjective matter 2. you seem be so convinced your view is "correct" (the whole pfftt gave it away). So, whatever
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September 13th, 2019, 03:16
"pfft" and "I disagree" followed by unsound reasoning and a snooty and irrelevant "do you realise some of us still play BG…" are pretty much along the same lines of response as far as respecting another person's opinion goes. And it was MY opinion in my short review that was sniped at to start with. I'm a reactive person and I respond in the same tone people use with me. Now if that "do you realise" weren't there perhaps my response would have been more respectful too.
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September 13th, 2019, 07:08
I find it ironic that someone who obviously doesn't understand why those games are as popular as they are is accusing someone else of unsound reasoning.
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September 13th, 2019, 10:01
I suppose people with age and experience are tending to preaching, rather then discussing. But anyone who might be 47 and played "pretty much every well known pc RPG" should probably consider, that there is ton of old farts who played tons of RPGs on this site.
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September 13th, 2019, 11:13
I believe A reason why they are popular was noted. As we have frequently seen popularity is not always a sign of quality; just look at some of our elected officials and other aspects of your daily life.
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IMHO BG 2 was enjoyable (even today) but it is hardly the best game (or best rpg) in existence imho. However, I'm reluctant to name games I consider better for two reasons:

First the mud slinging that shall follow and second there is no definitive 'best' or 'better' or 'good' game as it is a highly opinionated view.

That is not to say that many games (both new and old) are crappy or poorly designed/written/implemented but there is some truth that age provides rosy glasses for the past.

Originally Posted by JDR13 View Post
I find it ironic that someone who obviously doesn't understand why those games are as popular as they are is accusing someone else of unsound reasoning.
Last edited by you; September 13th, 2019 at 11:42.
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September 13th, 2019, 11:29
Originally Posted by you View Post
I believe A reason why they are popular was noted. As we have frequently seen popularity is not always a sign of quality; just look at some of our elected officials and other aspects of your daily life.
-
IMHO BG 2 was enjoyable (even today) but it is hardly the best game (or best rpg) in existence imho. However, I'm reluctant to name games I consider better for two reasons:

First the mud slinging that shall follow and second there is no definitive 'best' or 'better' or 'good' game as it is a highly opinionated view.

That is not to say that many games (both new and old) are crap or poorly designed/written/implemented but there is some truth that age provides rosy glasses for the past.
I dont think anyone here fights for BG to be announced as best game of history. At the same time there is lots of people (myself included) who consider BG games as great games and well playable even today. Why that opinion should be labeled as rose tinted nostalgia I do not understand. In similar way I feel about opinion graphics being alpha and omega of gaming. Not all people have it that way. And reason for that is not that they are dumb and unable to realize real reasons behind their own preferences.
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September 13th, 2019, 11:50
Part of the reason why it is label as 'rose tinted nostalgia' is some of the joy of playing a game like BG is the memory of when it was first played 20 years ago. That is not to say that there aren't first time players who love the game but there is a certain 'hype' factor that surrounds the game and I suspect if only first time players could vote on the game today it would not achieve quite the same cult status it currently holds. To be honest that would be an interesting experiment with many older highly regarded games. Then again one would or could argue that today voters would rate games on a different basis then the older generation.
-
One of my favorite games suffers from this same factor (for me it is wiz 8); I realize that if a game like wiz 8 was made today it could be significantly better in many ways (both technical and scope of the game); however having said that it is unlikely anyone will make such a game for many reasons.
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I think part of the problem we suffer with change in time (this is a bit off topic) is the increase effort in technical aspects and business aspect of game and reduction in creative effort (one of the reason why many indie game surprise on the creative side even if they are a bit lacking at times on the technical side).
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Originally Posted by Andrew23 View Post
I dont think anyone here fights for BG to be announced as best game of history. At the same time there is lots of people (myself included) who consider BG games as great games and well playable even today. Why that opinion should be labeled as rose tinted nostalgia I do not understand. In similar way I feel about opinion graphics being alpha and omega of gaming. Not all people have it that way. And reason for that is not that they are dumb and unable to realize real reasons behind their own preferences.
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September 13th, 2019, 14:05
One reason I like Greedfall so much is some of what was mentioned in this thread on the old and new games. That GF clearly has heart and passion in it from the devs. Yes their are re-used assets (governors building, every home, etc. … although DA2 was "AAA" and … well reused assets anyone…) and other minor annoyances but to me, at least, the passion put into the game shows.

Some of that is also based on the interviews with the devs. Granted I can only go on what they say at face value - but the laughter, animation, words, used … they seemed to really care about the game.

As for BG games … I am 55 as if age means much … and I grew up on those games along with the Pool of Radiance style games, and tons of other old games. I have many fond memories. I tried replaying BG2 this year … and well had trouble.

I love those games and they have high ranks in my books but I also love many of the new things in games and enjoyed many recent games with a similar style but updated technology - Torment, Tides, POE1 and 2, and Kingmaker (although Kingmaker is in a different style). I also love my Skyrim and FO4.

Anyhow many older games, for me, had great stories and characters and I don't think that has changed much myself - not like time has improved writing IMO, more technology and resources … which can then mean more areas to add more story and more complex companions.

Hmm … I lost my point lol. Must be old age. Guess simply I love the old games but find I don't enjoy playing them as much now as I am used to all the advances in technology that new games can take advantage of even if some of them keep a similar style at times to older games.
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September 13th, 2019, 14:17
I don't understand this idea of "rose tinted nostalgia" as rebuttal when someone claims an older game is good etc.

We know that we can't realistically compare older games to with newer games. Newer games in general look and run much better due to advances in technology etc.

However I can still compare how much "fun" I had between two games regardless of when they were made. I know I had more fun playing some of older Bioware games than I did with some of their newer games. I had more fun playing buggy Morrowind than I did with Skyrim. I think this comparison is valid and this is what people mean when they older games are better.
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September 13th, 2019, 14:25
Originally Posted by JDR13 View Post
I find it ironic that someone who obviously doesn't understand why those games are as popular as they are is accusing someone else of unsound reasoning.
I still play BG myself occasionally, I also play games like Knights of the Chalice and every Spiderweb game but the one that's just come out. For many years I agreed when Planescape: Torment tended to top the lists of "best RPG ever" (I don't any more because you don't get to just write off graphics and sound as if they are completely unimportant or shallow considerations - they contribute to the overall atmosphere and do not preclude good story and gameplay). Once again I repeat that my original comment (that got jumped on instantly by a few fanboys and girls) was nothing to do with whether or not Bioware games were good but rather that to compare Greedfall with, not just a single one, but the entirety of "like a Bioware game" was ludicrous. This is where the unsound reasoning comes from not that somebody still thinks BG is a good game. So, that comment about me being someone who "obviously doesn't understand why those games are as popular as they are.." is UNSOUND because I never said any such thing to start with and you are plain wrong about what I do and do not understand. Because you assume something doesn't make it fact. What I DID try to explain is that you can't keep trawling out these older games and holding them up as comparisons to anything and everything that has come out since. As someone earlier pointed out it is like comparing apples with oranges and saying one is better than the other.

*edit* moreover, I believe that all those people saying things like "like a Bioware game" were referring to their more recent work and had nothing to do with isometric RPGs whatsoever. So I'm not even clear as to why BG was even brought into the discussion to start with. As for the 'rose tinted' it was not an insult OR a rebuttal and "you" explained what I meant perfectly. I feel it is overhype in the face of what can, and is, being done now. Which is not to say it was or is bad or that modern works cannot still learn from older games in some respects.
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