Is it better to…

Oh, okay. Well, I sympathize with people who want to keep their company afloat and their people employed. If they want to make a reasonable profit along the way, that's fine with me, too. Otoh, it would bother me if I thought the company had excessive greed and seemed only interested in making huge profits.

Do you have any opinions on when the first is the case, and when the second is the case?

Is there any company you feel assured is doing one thing over the other?

Personally, I think all companies have both things in mind - as would be natural. It just doesn't sit will with me, when I see the second aspect taking charge - and I tell myself there are cases of that happening.

But I don't think greed or the desire to be big and popular will necessarily exclude the wish to make great games. I just happen to think it makes it much harder to make games that fit a personal or shared artistic vision. Such things rarely appeal to the majority.
 
You just have to consider that game companies need to be absolutely filthy rich before they can afford NOT to think of money.

I think even you will agree that it is important for any company to be financial responsible - both towards the investors in the company but also the employees, who most likely depend very much on their monthly pay check. If a company folds, it is a big blow - especially for the more artistic people (artists, animators, level designers etc). A programmer can probably find new work fairly easy, but it is just not as easy for the more specialized groups.

Also remember that game development, in its current form, is an extremely risky way of doing business. Basically you have maybe 150 people working on a single title for 2-3 years, just burning up company money. Then you release your title, and it needs to sell most of its copies during the first couple of months. After that the price will often drop significantly and you will not make much money on additional sales (although a few titles have a long "tail" it is not the norm).

Therefore if a title fails, a game company will burn through any reserves it might have FAST! For many independent developers they really just have a single shot every time they work on a title. It just *needs* to work out for them.

If you want my opinion - most likely you don't, but what the hell :) - it is not currently possible for independent AAA developers to take wild chances. They'll need to iterate on formulas that are proven to work (and, yes, sell). With each game they might add a few new things that develops or expands the genre. If they are good, these new features will be something people talk about and makes their game stand out.

The key to more experimental games is, in my opinion, to find a way to bring down the cost of producing games. If a company could do maybe 3-4 smaller projects in parallel (and if such projects could be made profitable) then they might be willing to produce, say, 2 games that are "pretty sure to sell" and 2 games that are more experimental - but still have the potential to be the next big hit. But obviously they need to be able to financially survive a failure on a few products.

On a large scale, this is actually how many publishers work with their yearly catalog.

But the thing is - the game industry is caught it a dead lock! It has been proven multiple times that *generally* enough people will not buy experimental and low-budget titles for the PC. It a title does not have cutting-edge tech and graphics the reviewers will bomb it, almost without exception. To make cutting edge graphics you need an enormous graphics team. If you have an enormous graphics team your game will get really expensive. If it's very expensive you *need* to sell millions of copies...

A few developers manages to strike the right balance between simple visuals, perfect game play and low production cost. And hats off to those! :)
 
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You just have to consider that game companies need to be absolutely filthy rich before they can afford NOT to think of money.

I think even you will agree that it is important for any company to be financial responsible - both towards the investors in the company but also the employees, who most likely depend very much on their monthly pay check. If a company folds, it is a big blow - especially for the more artistic people (artists, animators, level designers etc). A programmer can probably find new work fairly easy, but it is just not as easy for the more specialized groups.

But this is why I'm constantly saddened to see that it's the companies with the most money that seem to take the smallest risks.

Also remember that game development, in its current form, is an extremely risky way of doing business. Basically you have maybe 150 people working on a single title for 2-3 years, just burning up company money. Then you release your title, and it needs to sell most of its copies during the first couple of months. After that the price will often drop significantly and you will not make much money on additional sales (although a few titles have a long "tail" it is not the norm).

But it's a balancing act. No one asked the company to grow to 150 people, and no one asked them to invest ever more millions in their games.

It's this disease of having to be the biggest and the result is not the best games, but the most popular games.

Is it really so desirable to be that big, when being smaller can be profitable - just on a different scale? Of course it is, because money is the goal - or it BECOMES the goal.

Therefore if a title fails, a game company will burn through any reserves it might have FAST! For many independent developers they really just have a single shot every time they work on a title. It just *needs* to work out for them.

Yet, many smaller companies are willing to develop games for smaller audiences. Isn't that strange.

Why can someone of "middle-size" like PB develop great and big CRPGs with relatively deep and challenging gameplay - that also look great - when they're so small? How can they take that "risk"?

If you want my opinion - most likely you don't, but what the hell :) - it is not currently possible for independent AAA developers to take wild chances. They'll need to iterate on formulas that are proven to work (and, yes, sell). With each game they might add a few new things that develops or expands the genre. If they are good, these new features will be something people talk about and makes their game stand out.

Of course I want your opinion.

Wild chances?

Independent AAA developers?

I'm confused.

I'm not asking AAA developers to do anything, really - but only to consider if it's not worthwhile investing less in games of a smaller scope. You can have your blockbuster games still, but why not assign some of all those millions to a smaller more passionate team? Just a thought.

The key to more experimental games is, in my opinion, to find a way to bring down the cost of producing games. If a company could do maybe 3-4 smaller projects in parallel (and if such projects could be made profitable) then they might be willing to produce, say, 2 games that are "pretty sure to sell" and 2 games that are more experimental - but still have the potential to be the next big hit. But obviously they need to be able to financially survive a failure on a few products.

Precisely the kind of thing I'm talking about. Except I'm saying try not to focus on becoming big. Focus on having control over your product and ensure survival by investing less in terms of production values. Invest passion and time instead.

But the thing is - the game industry is caught it a dead lock! It has been proven multiple times that *generally* enough people will not buy experimental and low-budget titles for the PC. It a title does not have cutting-edge tech and graphics the reviewers will bomb it, almost without exception. To make cutting edge graphics you need an enormous graphics team. If you have an enormous graphics team your game will get really expensive. If it's very expensive you *need* to sell millions of copies…

I'm not talking about experimental games. I'm talking about games built from a thorough understanding of game design - and at most an evolutionary kind of game.

An obvious example would be to not develop Dragon Age 2 as a mainstream TV show (frankly, what it seems like to me at this point) - but instead take what worked so well in the first game, and expand upon it. Don't expand by investing MORE money - but rather by investing more in your own vision.

Don't tell me they didn't know what worked and what didn't work in the first game. They don't need market analysts for that.

They know exactly what worked and what didn't. What they don't know is how to optimise the amount of copies sold - and that's what's a complete travesty to have as a goal - when you can still make millions on a more profound or challenging game - like Dragon Age 2 SHOULD have been.

A few developers manages to strike the right balance between simple visuals, perfect game play and low production cost. And hats off to those! :)

Indeed, but I wonder if this is pure luck - of if it's about having a clear idea of what you want to do with your time.
 
Do you have any opinions on when the first is the case, and when the second is the case?

Is there any company you feel assured is doing one thing over the other?

Personally, I think all companies have both things in mind - as would be natural. It just doesn't sit will with me, when I see the second aspect taking charge - and I tell myself there are cases of that happening.

Yeah, I know it bothers you a lot. I understand your objection to it, and I agree that it is sad to see a company (or a band, or an author) that once produced something great devolve into a drivel machine. I know it happens. Success is seductive, and power/money corrupts a lot of people.

I don't have a good way of knowing when it is happening to a company, really (when it has moved from "seeking reasonable profits" to "excessive greed"). I think I would have to research the company and sit in on its board meetings — or at least talk to a few reliable sources who knew things from the inside — before I could make a good judgment about that.

You can look at its products and see if there is a decline. This would be similar to watching a band to see if it would "sell out" or a brilliant author go sour — you would watch for their works to get weaker and weaker, less inspired. But how would you know that's from excessive greed and not some other factor like just running out of inspiration, not being all that talented to begin with, a shift in their vision, a simple difference of taste, etc.

You could watch to see if their sales went through the roof and the company expanded hugely in size. That might be an indication that they are knee-deep in ravenous greed. But you can't really make the inference just based on that, either, because those things can come from other sources, including strong vision.

One reliable indicator might be if the CEO or some high-level muckedy muck said something to give it away -- "our main interest is accumulating huge sums of money" (not in those words exactly, of course, but words to that effect). Most CEOs are smart enough not to publically announce that sort of thing, though.
 
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Yeah, I know it bothers you a lot. I understand your objection to it, and I agree that it is sad to see a company (or a band, or an author) that once produced something great devolve into a drivel machine. I know it happens. Success is seductive, and power/money corrupts a lot of people.

I don't have a good way of knowing when it is happening to a company, really (when it has moved from "seeking reasonable profits" to "excessive greed"). I think I would have to research the company and sit in on its board meetings — or at least talk to a few reliable sources who knew things from the inside — before I could make a good judgment about that.

You can look at its products and see if there is a decline. This would be similar to watching a band to see if it would "sell out" or a brilliant author go sour — you would watch for their works to get weaker and weaker, less inspired. But how would you know that's from excessive greed and not some other factor like just running out of inspiration, not being all that talented to begin with, a shift in their vision, a simple difference of taste, etc.

You could watch to see if their sales went through the roof and the company expanded hugely in size. That might be an indication that they are knee-deep in ravenous greed. But you can't really make the inference just based on that, either, because those things can come from other sources, including strong vision.

One reliable indicator might be if the CEO or some high-level muckedy muck said something to give it away — "our main interest is accumulating huge sums of money" (not in those words exactly, of course, but words to that effect). Most CEOs are smart enough not to publically announce that sort of thing, though.

It seems we largely agree about the signs, and how it will be hard to detect if you don't have access to priviliged information.

I guess it comes down to personal experience and optimism/pessimism/realism.

I tend to believe, though, that the whole idea of pursuing wealth versus art is an incredibly blurry one.

In fact, I think a lot of companies who are actively pursuing wealth before art - are not even fully aware of it.

That's because I base my opinions on my experience with human nature - rather than specific and intricate observations of company policy. It's human nature to want to thrive and be happy - and it's human nature to be in denial in many cases - if that makes you happy, though it will often be a very temporary state of mind.

The thing is that with big companies - like the obvious Bioware or Blizzard - it's not a single entity with a shared collective vision. It's just a bunch of people working together under set conditions. These conditions change dynamically - and the typical scenario is that managment or what I call top-people will have an agenda, for good or ill, and the individual worker might not even be aware of it.

They might not even want to be aware of it - and they might not want to act against it - even if they ARE against it.

That's the kind of thing I witness on a daily basis where I work - and at all the places I've worked. People say one thing openly - and something completely different in private or with trusted colleagues.

So, when something is to be presented or something deals with our outward image - it's presented as something COMPLETELY foreign to me. It's like a completely different reality that needs to be presented to our customers or the press.

That's how it's been everywhere I've been - and this tells me it's likely to be very common.

So, because some big company manages to present themselves in one way - or have developers openly praise internal policies - it's not necessarily an accurate reflection of reality.

Which is why I look at the only thing I really can look at, which are the games themselves. I try to look at games and how they've changed from the past - and I correlate it with my understanding of human nature - and I try to stick to what I consider a plausible scenario.

Unfortunately, this means I get to a very pessimistic place - compared to other people. It might be that I'm delusional - or that I'm so jaded I can't give companies a chance to be different. It seems a lot of people are a lot more optimistic than myself about the industry and what drives it.

It's not for me to actually know whether I'm being too dark or unfair - but I strive very hard to see things for what they are. In that way, there are very few companies left out there who're truly driven by the art.
 
Hmm… Well, I know about the lack of integrity you're talking about. I've seen that in a lot of places, including the one where I work now. I don't think that makes you a pessimist. I think that just makes you an accurate observer. I don't think all companies are like that, but certainly most are.

My sense is that it's not just excessive greed for money that drives that sort of thing, though. It's also desire for honor/prestige, for power, for approval and recognition and status. All our usual "little ego" motives. And then you've got the various dynamics that stifle creativity, like the tendency to stick to what has succeeded in the past, to surround yourself with Yes men, to grow more conservative as the budgets swell, people rising to the level of their incompetence, etc.

As for "companies who are truly driven by the art," I imagine the percentage is very small. However, this does not bother me so much. I stopped expecting art (or maybe I should capitalize that: Art) in videogames many years ago. I see videogames as an entertainment medium. If I want Art, I will read a book, watch a film, listen to some music, or look at a good painting. I play videogames for entertainment (relaxation, amusement, challenge, fun, etc).
 
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Hmm… Well, I know about the lack of integrity you're talking about. I've seen that in a lot of places, including the one where I work now. I don't think that makes you a pessimist. I think that just makes you an accurate observer. I don't think all companies are like that, but certainly most are.

Glad I'm not the only one with that perception :)

My sense is that it's not just excessive greed for money that drives that sort of thing, though. It's also desire for honor/prestige, for power, for approval and recognition and status. All our usual "little ego" motives. And then you've got the various dynamics that stifle creativity, like the tendency to stick to what has succeeded in the past, to surround yourself with Yes men, to grow more conservative as the budgets swell, people rising to the level of their incompetence, etc.

No no, not excessive greed. In a way, I think we're ALL greedy - but we hunger for different things. I don't really think there's much to be done about the sensation of greed or wanting more.

What I'm talking about is that greed isn't necessarily good for us, if we're greedy for the "wrong" thing. It's my experience, that people who strive for power/recognition/money are not really pursuing that which will truly make them happy or satisfied.

It's my experience that thriving for such a thing, is a way of compensating for something else - which is actually the true cause.

But, I also respect the desire to create and to make a difference. The motivation doesn't concern me - if the result is "pure". It's when the motivation results in "impurity" that it becomes a concern.

It's fully possible to be motivated by greed and a lust for power - whilst simultaneously achieving great things. They CAN co-exist - as we've seen countless times throughout history.

But there is a constant danger or threshold where the hunger for those things overtake the capacity for greatness. It's something I seem to witness often in the great artists - in any given field.

Take someone like James Cameron - who I actually think used to be a master film-maker. I think Terminator and Aliens are two of the best movies in existence - and I think he made those movies "from the heart" or "from the passion" - as he wanted to see those movies himself.

That's not what I think he's doing today, and I think he's been increasingly focused on the underlying motives as mentioned above.

We see this all the time with directors, writers, and game designers.

As for "companies who are truly driven by the art," I imagine the percentage is very small. However, this does not bother me so much. I stopped expecting art (or maybe I should capitalize that: Art) in videogames many years ago. I see videogames as an entertainment medium. If I want Art, I will read a book, watch a film, listen to some music, or look at a good painting. I play videogames for entertainment (relaxation, amusement, challenge, fun, etc).

I think maybe it's a problem that I use the word "art" - because I think it's sometimes confused with "fine art" - or some "artsy fartsy" elevated material.

That's not really what I mean. I just mean "from the heart" or "from the dream" - and I haven't quite given up on that.

I think there's just as big an opportunity to see that with games, as with books or movies. It's about determination and the ability to not be driven by greed.

Well, that's how I see it - anyway.
 
But this is why I'm constantly saddened to see that it's the companies with the most money that seem to take the smallest risks.

This is a thing I don't understand either.

My only possible explanation is this that they've grown too big - need to pay too many employees, feel like being forced to deliver AAA titles - anything blow that would be flamed as being "crap" or something worse by gamers … Could you imagine Bethesda making an Indie-title ? With - let's say, for example - graphics that are "usual" by Indies ? EVERYONE would give this game a BAD critique ENTIRELY for its GRAPHICS, no matter how good it was actually

Because EVERYONE would EXPECT an AAA titly by them … Not a game like … Commander Keen, for example … Or Grotesque Tactics ... Or Magicka ...
That's imho kind of a "peer presure" on them ...
 
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What I'm talking about is that greed isn't necessarily good for us, if we're greedy for the "wrong" thing. It's my experience, that people who strive for power/recognition/money are not really pursuing that which will truly make them happy or satisfied.

I agree. So do most of the world's greatest minds.

[snip bunch of stuff I agree with.]

I think maybe it's a problem that I use the word "art" - because I think it's sometimes confused with "fine art" - or some "artsy fartsy" elevated material.

Yes, that's what I thought you meant.

That's not really what I mean. I just mean "from the heart" or "from the dream" - and I haven't quite given up on that.

Ah, okay. Neither have I. I think immediately of Deadly Premonition, a trainwreck of a game that was nevertheless the brainchild of a singular vision by a nutcase named Swerty. I also think of Beyond Good and Evil, a game "with heart" by Michel Ancel. It just got reissued in HD and I'm replaying it now. I can think of many more examples, but it's not necessary. I know what you mean.

I think there's just as big an opportunity to see that with games, as with books or movies. It's about determination and the ability to not be driven by greed.

Sounds good to me. I think there are barriers there for game developers that aren't there for writers or musicians, though, and that's why you see a lot more stuff "from the heart" in the latter camp. Creativity on that level is basically an individual thing. Ok, maybe two people playing off each other, but usually not more than that.

With games, you've got a whole team of people involved. Sometimes there's a strong vision and leader, but often I think we're looking at games designed in meetings and by committee. I don't think we can expect games "from the heart" to come out of committees.

Doing something like what you're talking about requires an individual with a very strong, clear vision AND rich knowledge of the game world AND a strong ability to lead and motivate people. I think those people are pretty scarce.

But I agree with you — it's not hopeless, and I'd love to see more games like that, and fewer games built by committee.
 
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