Piranha Bytes - Working On a New RPG

JDR13 said:

I wouldn't call PB's games philosophically deep, but to claim they were inconsistent and made it up as they went along is just foolish. Story-wise, I can't think of an open-world aRPG that's better save for perhaps Divinity II.

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*SPOILERS*

In the end sequence of Gothic 1, the Nameless Hero (NH) emerges from the Temple of the Sleeper, into daylight, and observes that the magical barrier has fallen. Then in the intro to Gothic 2, the NH retroactively lies buried beneath rubble in the chamber of the Sleeper, is teleported out by Xardas, and is clueless to what has transpired.

The orcs are suddenly redesigned in Gothic 3; their appearance, their intellect, and their culture, is significantly different from what it was in Gothic 1 & 2.

If I recall correctly there's one thing Xardas, Vatras, Pyrokar, Lord Hagen, and the quest journal, all agree on: The Eye of Innos can only be wielded by the Chosen of Innos. The idea that the Nameless Hero is the Chosen of Innos is consistent with Gothic 1 and 2, but then during the development of Night of the Raven, PB apparently changed their minds and decided that NH should be the Chosen of Adanos instead (the game strongly hints at it in the final confrontation with Raven, and Mike Hoge has confirmed it 100% in an interview). If they had planned that NH should be the Chosen of Adanos, they wouldn't have introduced all the material about how the Eye was exclusive to the Chosen of Innos.

How did Gorn know where the first rebel camp (Reddock) in Myrtana was located? He had just arrived, and he didn't have contact with the mainland during Gothic 1 & 2 (Reddock probably didn't exist during G1+2 either). Yet he immediately leads us directly to it, between the two nearby orc patrols that are searching for it…

Then of course there's the interview with Sascha Henrichs (http://www.worldofgames.ro/sascha-henrichs-interview/) where he says that the pyramid in Khorinis was completely random at the time, because they didn't know what to do with the game area. He goes on to say that "the new world itself also consisted of a few different land masses that were happily patched and thrown together without an idea of a design. There was just this Pyramid and based on this, we created the NOTR world. The desert canyon was actually a prototype for another project we worked on, just after Gothic 1. But it was never finished and to not discard all the effort we put into this, I decided to weld this canyon into the new world. It was a “stunt” but somehow it worked in the end haha."

These are some of the reasons why I think PB made up things as they went along, and why I think that they've been rather inconsistent.

I think the charm of PB's universe lies in the not too casual-not too serious way they deal with it. The dry sense of humor, lack of any preachy/uptight sense of morality and sarcastic/carefree nature of the NH (and occasionally, other characters) that is present throughout the whole franchise (and reached its peak in Risen 2 and is even present in Arcania) makes the universe a lot more interesting and it makes you feel intimate with everything in it.
So yeah, technically, Gothic's universe is not as vast or detailed as Forgotten Realms or Tamriel. Its plot-lines are not carefully planned in a way that some Bioware/Obsidian games are, but I prefer it to them any day of the week, because it feels so alive. I will probably remember characters like Xardas, Milten, Gorn and Lester for the rest of my life. I will never forget how places like the penal colony, Khorinis and Myrtana looked like in such precise details. The same thing can't be said about many other works of fiction. That's what makes Gothic's universe so special: It sticks to your mind and won't let go.

@enm - No need to give a breakdown of events, I'm quite familiar with the series.

The pyramid in G2 and the canyon in Jharkendar are parts of the environment. I interpreted your comment to be about storyline, so I don't seed the connection. Most games aren't written simultaneously as the world is being created.

I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure something was said at some point about Gorn previously being associated with the rebels.

I agree about the change in the Orcs in G3, and that is a subject that has been discussed here in the past. Some people seemed to think that perhaps it was a regional difference - that the Orcs on the continent were simply different from the Orcs on Khorinis. Whatever the reason, it would have been nice if PB had explained it, but I don't see it as having a significant impact on the experience.

As far as the Eys of Innos is concerned, developers change their minds all the time about certain details. If that qualifies as making a game up as they went along, then you could say the same thing about all games.

Just going to add that I found Risen 2 immensely enjoyable, Better than Risen 1 and as good as Gothic 2. I waited until a few months ago to get it, and maybe the very low price and the low expectations (it was received rather poorly here IMO) helped my impression, but either way they refined their game creation into an amazing RPG with that release.

I liked Risen 2 a lot as well. It clearly wasn't perfect, and I couldn't enjoy it without a few fan patches for the weird foliage "feature". I still have a very hard time believing PB wanted to release their game looking like that.

Beyond that, the two major issues were the poor balance between Voodoo magic and Firearms (the latter being way too powerful, the former being too weak and outright strange) - and the samey nature of the island exploration.

Exploration being the absolute best part of any PB game, it's very unfortunate that they couldn't hold my interest all the way. Personally, I would have considered the game superior to Gothic 2 - if they hadn't messed up with the too-many-islands approach. They should have had 2-3 bigger and more distinct islands instead.

The atmosphere was masterful - and I was mesmerised by the amazing lighting effects in the jungle. A great and immersive game despite all the flaws.

JDR13 said:

@enm - No need to give a breakdown of events, I'm quite familiar with the series.

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I wasn't giving a breakdown of events, I was explaining how the intro to Gothic 2 directly contradicts the ending of Gothic 1.

JDR13 said:

As far as the Eys of Innos is concerned, developers change their minds all the time about certain details. If that qualifies as making a game up as they went along, then you could say the same thing about all games.

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Just like in the Baldur's Gate series, where the protagonist is changed from being the Spawn of Bhaal in BG1, to being the Spawn of Bane in the expansion to BG2. Oh wait, that didn't happen, and such big-picture inconsistencies very rarely take place. Changing the hero from being the Chosen of the god of justice and order, to being the Chosen of the god of balance and neutrality, is pretty significant.

enm said:

Just like in the Baldur's Gate series, where the protagonist is changed from being the Spawn of Bhaal in BG1, to being the Spawn of Bane in the expansion to BG2. Oh wait, that didn't happen, and such big-picture inconsistencies very rarely take place. Changing the hero from being the Chosen of the god of justice and order, to being the Chosen of the god of balance and neutrality, is pretty significant.

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I think it's just a big inconsistency to you. It's more like a big nitpick from where I'm watching.

Especially since the involvement of the Gods and/or their minions in your roleplaying choices didn't really enter into G1 and G2. It just seemed like narrative frosting with no gameplay implications.

JDR13 said:

I think it's just a big inconsistency to you. It's more like a big nitpick from where I'm watching.

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Well let's put it this way… Imagine that you wake up tomorrow and discover that your darling Joe Biden is suddenly—for no apparent a reason—a Republican. That might be "nitpicky" from your perspective because Biden doesn't directly affect your life, and he doesn't interact with you (I assume), but it'd still be rather annoying because there isn't a single reason WHY he should suddenly be a Republican. So, Biden's inexplicable transformation would always be at the back on your mind, gnawing at your sanity.

You just compared the intro for a video game to a major political figure. I have no rebuttal.

JDR13 said:

You just compared the intro for a video game to major political figure. I have no rebuttal.

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No, this was in regards to the inconsistency of changing the Nameless Hero from being the Chosen of Innos, to being the Chosen of Adanos. So as you see, Joe Biden is entirely relevant.

Biden was the Chosen of Obama!! Does that make Obummer a god??!!

Nah... Obama is too inconsistent. I think he's been making things up as he goes along.

He has a peace prize, and a death count that's the envy of the gods. How's that for inconsistency.

I think enm is making mischief or completely out of touch, or maybe both.

examples ->

1. "The idea that the Nameless Hero is the Chosen of Innos is consistent with Gothic 1 and 2"

2. "No, this was in regards to the inconsistency of changing the Nameless Hero from being the Chosen of Innos, to being the Chosen of Adanos"
............................
Our Nameless Hero is the chosen, the agent, the avatar, the ambassador, the right hand man of the god Adanos in G1 to G3 and always has been, have you got that? - i repeat

*Adanos*
-
*Adanos*
-
"Adanos"

Wulf said:

I think enm is making mischief or completely out of touch, or maybe both.

examples ->

1. "The idea that the Nameless Hero is the Chosen of Innos is consistent with Gothic 1 and 2"

2. "No, this was in regards to the inconsistency of changing the Nameless Hero from being the Chosen of Innos, to being the Chosen of Adanos"
……………………….
Our Nameless Hero is the chosen, the agent, the avatar, the ambassador, the right hand man of the god Adanos in G1 to G3 and always has been, have you got that? - i repeat

*Adanos*
-
*Adanos*
-
"Adanos"

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Let me clarify: The idea that the Nameless Hero is the Chosen of Innos is consistent with Gothic 1, and the "vanilla" Gothic 2. You are identified as such by a number of people, most notably by Xardas, and G2 established that only the Chosen of Innos can wield the Eye of Innos (and I think drink the Tears of Innos). The idea that he's the Chosen of Adanos instead is introduced in NotR, along with the other Adanos-related material such as Jharkendar, the Ring of Water, and the return of the Water Mages.