Bard's Tale IV - Character Creation Video

Darth Tagnan said:

It's down to what you expect from the genre. If you look at the great ones, including Dungeon Master, Black Crypt, Lands of Lore, Captive, Eye of the Beholder - and so on, they were never THAT rich in terms of exploration or lore, anything like that.

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They were quite a bit richer. Looking at Ishar, Eye of the Beholder, Lands of Lore and Stonekeep.

New Dungeon Crawlers are just Dungeons, Enemies and Puzzles.
They are all more copies of Dungeon Master, but not of these "newer" generation of the early to mid 90s.

Check these games again. I am not saying that these were deep and complex games. But just check Lands of Lore and it's story. First you talk to the King, you run around in the castle, talking to the shop keepers. You go out charter a boat. You meet Scotia disguised as a young lady meet the Elf who shortly after that gets killed. It's all simple and rather simply made. But it is something exciting to discover.

Grimrock on the other hand. Whee…got a new text in my dream, found a new note...

Kordanor said:

Check these games again. I am not saying that these were deep and complex games. But just check Lands of Lore and it's story. First you talk to the King, you run around in the castle, talking to the shop keepers. You go out charter a boat. You meet Scotia disguised as a young lady meet the Elf who shortly after that gets killed. It's all simple and rather simply made. But it is something exciting to discover.

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Ahhhh, the glorious past. That glorious game. My first and most loved computer game. Yeah, and character creation was "Pick Michael, Ak'Shel and that other one I never played". Today we want at least 100000s of races and skill numbers like atoms in the universe. Moar moar moar - less is defined as bad. Then we say "it is such a great, complex game" - and start scratching surfaces of surfaces of surfaces alltogether, yay! IDK, we may be fundamentally wrong in our expectations.

Have never played (and seen!) a Bards Tale game btw., but it caught my interest because our beloved HiddenX praised it.

Kordanor said:

They were quite a bit richer. Looking at Ishar, Eye of the Beholder, Lands of Lore and Stonekeep.

New Dungeon Crawlers are just Dungeons, Enemies and Puzzles.
They are all more copies of Dungeon Master, but not of these "newer" generation of the early to mid 90s.

Check these games again. I am not saying that these were deep and complex games. But just check Lands of Lore and it's story. First you talk to the King, you run around in the castle, talking to the shop keepers. You go out charter a boat. You meet Scotia disguised as a young lady meet the Elf who shortly after that gets killed. It's all simple and rather simply made. But it is something exciting to discover.

Grimrock on the other hand. Whee…got a new text in my dream, found a new note…

Click to expand...

You asked me for examples of games I felt did those things well, and I specifically pointed out that I couldn't make that true for you.

I can only talk about what I, personally, think and feel.

I don't need to check these game again. We're talking about some of my favorite games in what used to be my favorite genre. I know exactly how they play - and what content they have.

I gave you two examples and you've already admitted you haven't played them. Now you're saying old games were richer?

I don't know how that works, really.

I already said I didn't care much for Grimrock - so we agree it's not as good as the best of the old ones.

But in terms of features and exploration, it's very, very similar to Dungeon Master. In fact, someone re-created Dungeon Master almost exactly using the very same editor as the developers used for Grimrock.

As for Stonekeep, that's not what I would consider a standard blobber. For its time, it was a very expensive production - full of the trendy FMV videos of the time.

In that way, no indie blobber will be able to compete in terms of that sort of content.

But compared to Lands of Lore, for instance, Grimrock 2 easily matches that one in terms of exploration - and vastly exceeds it in terms of character mechanics and the combat system. It's quite diverse when it comes to environments, including dungeons, outdoor areas, underwater sections - and so forth. It's also full of neat stuff to find when exploring, including journals and more interesting puzzles than the prequel.

Vaporum is also very good in these ways, and it has stuff like audio journals - and a really good character system. In a way, it's more like System Shock combined with Dungeon Master - I suppose.

But, as with all things, it comes down to personal preferences. For instance, I don't think having a "shop keeper" is essential to my enjoyment of these games. I consider that a largely superfluous feature for the genre.

Lands of Lore had voice acting for the CD version - and more elaborate story telling than Grimrock 2 - but in terms of the level design and actual gameplay/exploration - Grimrock 2 wins - hands down.

That said, I meant what I said originally. I'm not omnipotent. I can't take a modern indie blobber and make it give you the same experience - and I can't guarentee that it will have every single feature that YOU want in this genre.

All I can say is that I think both games compare very favorably to the games I mentioned, and I mean that - and I know what I'm talking about.

Kordanor said:

They were quite a bit richer. Looking at Ishar, Eye of the Beholder, Lands of Lore and Stonekeep.

New Dungeon Crawlers are just Dungeons, Enemies and Puzzles.
They are all more copies of Dungeon Master, but not of these "newer" generation of the early to mid 90s.

Check these games again. I am not saying that these were deep and complex games. But just check Lands of Lore and it's story. First you talk to the King, you run around in the castle, talking to the shop keepers. You go out charter a boat. You meet Scotia disguised as a young lady meet the Elf who shortly after that gets killed. It's all simple and rather simply made. But it is something exciting to discover.

Grimrock on the other hand. Whee…got a new text in my dream, found a new note…

Click to expand...

You asked me for examples of games I felt did those things well, and I specifically pointed out that I couldn't make that true for you.

I can only talk about what I, personally, think and feel.

I don't need to check these game again. We're talking about some of my favorite games in what used to be my favorite genre. I know exactly how they play - and what content they have.

I gave you two examples and you've already admitted you haven't played them. Now you're saying old games were richer?

I don't know how that works, really.

I already said I didn't care much for Grimrock - so we agree it's not as good as the best of the old ones.

But in terms of features and exploration, it's very, very similar to Dungeon Master. In fact, someone re-created Dungeon Master almost exactly using the very same editor as the developers used for Grimrock.

As for Stonekeep, that's not what I would consider a standard blobber. For its time, it was a very expensive production - full of the trendy FMV videos of the time.

In that way, no indie blobber will be able to compete in terms of that sort of content.

But compared to Lands of Lore, for instance, Grimrock 2 easily matches that one in terms of exploration - and vastly exceeds it in terms of character mechanics and the combat system. It's quite diverse when it comes to environments, including dungeons, outdoor areas, underwater sections - and so forth. It's also full of neat stuff to find when exploring, including journals and more interesting puzzles than the prequel.

Vaporum is also very good in these ways, and it has stuff like audio journals - and a really good character system. In a way, it's more like System Shock combined with Dungeon Master - I suppose.

But, as with all things, it comes down to personal preferences. For instance, I don't think having a "shop keeper" is essential to my enjoyment of these games. I consider that a largely superfluous feature for the genre. To me, it's about dungeon exploration and immersing myself in an environment.

In fact, both Grimrock 2 and Vaporum COULD have shop keepers - I don't even remember.

Lands of Lore had voice acting for the CD version - and more elaborate story telling than Grimrock 2 - but in terms of the level design and actual gameplay/exploration - Grimrock 2 wins - hands down.

That said, I meant what I said originally. I'm not omnipotent. I can't take a modern indie blobber and make it give you the same experience - and I can't guarentee that it will have every single feature that YOU want in this genre.

All I can say is that I think both games compare very favorably to the games I mentioned, and I mean that - and I know what I'm talking about.

Well I just replied to your comment which was stating that Lands of Lore and others were never that rich in exploration.
But...they were and I gave a specific example, also of what I mean with exploration.

Might give a Grimrock 2 and Vaporum another look though.

Kordanor said:

Well I just replied to your comment which was stating that Lands of Lore and others were never that rich in exploration.
But…they were and I gave a specific example, also of what I mean with exploration.

Might give a Grimrock 2 and Vaporum another look though.

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I said "THAT" - not "that" - and I did it for a reason.

No, YOU think they were THAT rich - and I don't. There's no truth here. For me, the genre has been overtaken by immersive sims - and I consider them the next step.

For ME - games like System Shock 2, Prey and Dishonored 2 FAR exceed even the best blobbers in terms of immersion and exploration.

I think you should give them a look, if you have the opportunity to do so.

But please don't come back whining about how you can't buy things at a shop keeper or charter a boat through a static picture with a little follow-up animation - because I'm not sure you can

Darth Tagnan said:

I said "THAT" - not "that" - and I did it for a reason.

No, YOU think they were THAT rich - and I don't. There's no truth here. For me, the genre has been overtaken by immersive sims - and I consider them the next step.

For ME - games like System Shock 2, Prey and Dishonored 2 FAR exceed even the best blobbers in terms of immersion and exploration.

I think you should give them a look, if you have the opportunity to do so.

But please don't come back whining about how you can't buy things at a shop keeper or charter a boat through a static picture with a little follow-up animation - because I'm not sure you can

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I never did and you are putting what I said out of context.
Also that other genres often surpass blobbers (old or new) in immersion is pretty undeniable and I see no basis on arguing otherwise.

Kordanor said:

I never did and you are putting what I said out of context.
Also that other genres often surpass blobbers (old or new) in immersion is pretty undeniable and I see no basis on arguing otherwise.

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Immersion AND exploration

But, so we agree? Cool.

Now go find Grimrock 2 or Vaporum on sale - and have some fun.

I have only played 2 blobbers, Wizardry 8 and MMX and I loved them both but never finished both of them. To me both of these games were about deep tactical combat. They reminded me of playing chess. In some of the best fights, the tension can be greater than FPS even though its turn based! The reason why I never finished them was because once I figured out the system and got certain level, then I settle into a certain pattern or rhythm to the combat and after while a this get boring and I stop. I don't consider this as a huge negative thing since I got 70+ hours of fun out these games so I am happy.

Both of these games immersed me into their world enough to give me context and meaning to to all the combat I was doing. They had some story although I don't remember it now! There were plenty to explore and find loot in all sort of places in those games as well so I was happy with this aspect as well.

I never got into Grimrock, I never felt immersed to care enough about the combat so I gave up!

I am looking forward to Bard's Tale IV but I don't have much gaming time these days so I hope Bard's Tale IV doesn't take 100+ hours to finish the main story etc since I do like to finish the story if its any good! I hope it turns out like Wizardry 8 and MMX in terms of combat depth, immersion and exploration.

Kordanor said:

Also that other genres often surpass blobbers (old or new) in immersion is pretty undeniable and I see no basis on arguing otherwise.

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They can have their immersion (whatever it means that given day), I'll take the absolute fun gameplay the blobber genre brings me.

You married? If not, I'm offering.

I have to admit I'm still not sold on this game and Underworld Ascendant. It will take a lot of positive opinions, and persuasion to make me play either of them.

Explain the relevance of this comment.

joxer said:

You married? If not, I'm offering.

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you said:

Explain the relevance of this comment.

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That's like asking Trump to say something that's not about how great he is.

Vaporum was a lot more exciting than I thought it would be, I gifted a couple during the holidays because I enjoyed it so much. As for the Grimrock games, the second was decent but the first really struck a chord for me, and is a game that will sit forever on my hard drive, to be replayed every so often.

Yeah, LoG was certainly one of the biggest surprises of that year for me. You could also say it single handedly reinvigorated that genre.

I do agree he improved on it with LoG 2 though.

I really need to get around to trying Vaporum one of these days. I just have a hard time getting past the single-character blobber thing.

I must admit that I instantly hated this blue grid the first time I saw it. Had I seen this earlier, I wouldn't have supported this game. Well, I did it.

Never considered it being an issue. Maybe blue is not the optimal color as it's usually associated with being modern /scifi, but besides of that...I think the solution is pretty good.