List CRPG ingredients by their importance to you.

From reading all the G3 loving and Oblivion bashing on the forums, I thought I was at the Codex. I'm still not sure, but I thought it'd be fun to list what is important to me in a crpg and compare that with the list of folks who prefer Gothic. Gothic is missing one of my main requirements so it's a B-game at best for me. However, several people will find my requirements to be unimportant so that Gothic can and is an A-list game for them

1. Character creation- This is my Gothic killer. I want to pick what I look like, what I'm wearing, my race, my skills, my classes. I don't want the game to force these choices on me. If I pick, it's my role-playing game. If it's forced upon me, it's their role-playing game. Big difference.

2. Exploration-I want a huge world to play in with lots of things to find. Variety is nice here, but not the end-all be-all. If I find 50 dungeons, even if similar, all is good. Item collection fits here too. I want to find stuff and then....

3. Item manipulation-This includes things like alchemy, crafting, spell building, lever puzzles, weapon and armor upgrades, etc.

4. Plentiful magic power- I want to be Pug of Crydee, or Belgarion of Riva. Not some little hedge witch who can cast 10 spells. I love games where you fill a
spell book

5. Stat/Ability/Skill manipulation-I want to tweak my character lots of times over the whole game. I want to see in-game effects of my gains in these areas.

6. Quickly resolved combat. Very few games have done combat so well that I enjoy multiple minute fights with each group of monsters. ToEE is an exception here. This is what I hated about Wiz8. It was the weakest aspect of the Ultima series too.

For me, story and memorable npcs are plusses. Neither are necessary for a good game. I loved Questron, Phantasie, Wizards Crown, etc back in the old days and none of these games had much of a story or any npcs. I made up the story myself with my imagination.

I'm a leveling-explorer crpger. I like things that increase: stats, skills, item abilities, etc and uncovering the black. These are my favorites in any game.

Actually, your list is decent for me. I would cross #6 off the list, and #4 wouldn't be a major player (although I like that sort of thing), but the rest look good to me. I would add something about not being able to get "100's in every stat" as well. I love the way Wiz8 and MM7 forced you to choose and lose skills--no character/party could master every skill in the game. Force me to make some hard choices in character development!

dteowner said:

I would add something about not being able to get "100's in every stat" as well. I love the way Wiz8 and MM7 forced you to choose and lose skills--no character/party could master every skill in the game. Force me to make some hard choices in character development!

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I agree completely. MM7 was such a great game. Wiz8 lost me on the long combats but I'm going to replay it one of these days with the Wizfast mod.

for cooking a rpg u need

00) making choices with consequences
01) character development / many stats with an impact on the game
02) finding / buying / selling lots of different equipment (unique items, rare items)
03) a good nonlinear story - interesting main quest
04) great challenging dungeons / locked doors / chests / traps
05) riddles / hard too find secrets, items / mysteries
06) lots of fun, humor
07) cool spells
08) lots of conversation, conversation options to solve quests and avoid combat
09) (round based) interesting challenging combat with many options
10) interesting NPCs with a background
11) NPCs with a schedule
12) fantasy world with conflicts to solve
13) different races (groups, guilds) with various occupations
14) chance of winning prizes, medals, houses, ranks ...
15) deadly cool arch-enemies
16) making weapons and spells
17) many (not necessary) side-quests
18) much world interaction / manipulation
19) eastereggs
20) free world, setting borders with harder to beat enemies and hard to find items (keys), only.
21) good (non breakable) economy model
22) many different groups with different goals -> choose your friends and enemies
23) for party crpgs: interesting (funny) dialogs with your partners
24) surprises and twists, more than one story path

...

This is where things get tricky - because for me story is at once all-important and unimportant. It is not a linear equation of independent variables ... there are interactions all over the place ...

HiddenX said:

19) eastereggs

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And of course we all forgot the most important thing:
- Scantily clad women with oversized chests.

@txa: don't start getting all Shock on us!

txa1265 said:

And of course we all forgot the most important thing:
- Scantily clad women with oversized chests.

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You forgot to add "wearing the ever-popular impossible battle bikini"

chamr said:

@txa: don't start getting all Shock on us!

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Hehe ... I just couldn't resist with the Easter Eggs comment ... I know what he means, but just got silly.

HiddenX, you should be making games(if you aren't) or at least consulting. If a game had even 75% of your list, it would mop the floor with most titles.

To parallel crpgnut's list:

1. Character creation:
For a single character crpg, I'm okay with a semi-pregenerated character, though I do like the gender option. But in some games, the story requires a protagonist to be a certain person. That's okay, as long as there are options to shape that char as you progress.
For party based crpg's, I want complete control, to roll and create all my own characters, including voices, appearence and class. I hate forming parties with generic NPC's, or NPC's who are merely there to advance the plot and serve no useful purpose.

I'm going to have to talk shorter or this post will be ten pages

2. & 3. Yes and Yes

4. Bigger louder yes..(mage-erette you know) I prefer spells of mass destruction, but good specific buffs are also quite cool--as in IWD where those howling dead girls could decimate your party with a fear effect unless you had a specific counterspell.

5. Definitely-especially like crpgs that allow your skills to improve through use as well as by merely killing things and leveling.

6. We part ways here. The more strategic and complex the combat, the more attractive I find the game.(This probably stems from being initially a tb strat gamer) I need the battles to be involving enough to make me use all those hardwon skills, spells and abilities and wish I had more. This ties in with #15 on HiddenX's list--the archenemy. A lot of Baldur's Gate was redeemed for me by Jon Irenicus.

Exploring, looting and pillaging, honing skills and the feeling that the world has a great many unknown things to offer -good and bad-are what lure me on as well.

Finally, most importantly--consequences. The whole game is meaningless without the feeling that what you have chosen to do & be has a genuine effect in the game world.

Great idea for a thread, crpgnut.

Just one thing to add to the ones mentioned above: feeling of progress within a reasonable time. If I play a CRPG the whole evening without gaining a significant level (or improving the character otherwise) or progressing the storyline, things start to feel tedious. Same thing with a linear storyline and having to reload time after time trying to get past certain enemies without an alternative way to progress or go away and come back later. This is why hack'n slash stuff doesn't interest me anymore, as the nature of the whole game approaches that of a shooter.

Choices/consequences and a feeling of achievement are maybe the most important attributes for me in a CRPG, and they are related to the progress described above. Storyline is also important, but there are so very few newer games with a great storyline that I'm wondering if there are any people with ideas left.

I love Hidden X's list!! WHat a game it would make. NUT, while I understand what you mean about character creation, I think I side much more with magerette. I may not get to determine what my Avatar looks like in Gothic, but I can develop him exactly HOW I want, so in effect I am CREATING the character continuously throughout the game and I don't have a problem with that. I hate been given a character and being told- this is a fighter and he will only be a fighter!! I don't buy games like that.

Basically a copy and paste with comentary and re-ordering(slightly):

(I'll start here as I have approximately zero interest in what the OP considers to be character "creation"...)
1. Character creation- This is my Gothic killer. I want to pick what I look like, what I'm wearing, my race, my skills, my classes. I don't want the game to force these choices on me. If I pick, it's my role-playing game. If it's forced upon me, it's their role-playing game. Big difference.
(IOW off the list it goes as what a character looks like and how customizable it is, is just a cheap gimmick to me... sort of like full voice acting...)

1. Stat/Ability/Skill manipulation-I want to tweak my character lots of times over the whole game. I want to see in-game effects of my gains in these areas.

I moved this up to 1, as I consider this more to be the character creation that I enjoy. I do like to have a fair number of options for character creation, especially if the game doesn't really use a class based system. Also I would add in class/race selection here if applicable. This was always one of my favorite parts with RPGs back in the day. Oblivion failed me here by reducing an already shrunk skillset to almost pathetic levels.

2. Exploration-I want a huge world to play in with lots of things to find. Variety is nice here, but not the end-all be-all. If I find 50 dungeons, even if similar, all is good. Item collection fits here too. I want to find stuff and then....

Again, have to agree, I love being able to wander and explore the "world" that has been created for the game, which is probably why I actually sort of like Morrowind, and originally, thought that I might be able to stomach Oblivion...

3. Plentiful magic power- I want to be Pug of Crydee, or Belgarion of Riva. Not some little hedge witch who can cast 10 spells. I love games where you fill a
spell book

Magic is fun, IF it is a fantasy setting. I like to play mage or cleric characters in one char games, and always have both in party games. Yes, part of it is the utility that bring...

4. Item manipulation-This includes things like alchemy, crafting, spell building, lever puzzles, weapon and armor upgrades, etc.

Not nearly as important to e, but a nice gimmick if well done.

6. Quickly resolved combat. Very few games have done combat so well that I enjoy multiple minute fights with each group of monsters. ToEE is an exception here. This is what I hated about Wiz8. It was the weakest aspect of the Ultima series too.

OK, here I have to say I don't agree with at all. Long cobat usually means that the encounter is NOT a push over and that my char or party is having to work at winning, or may even be in over their head. These are things which I appreciate in RPGs. Again, Oblivion failed this test for me.

Already many great lists I'll make a rather short one, I could make a couple of 1000 pages though

0) NO BUGS ( Impossible I know... buit well as few as possible )
1) FUN! ( isn't this why we all play games? )
2) Story and setting ( If the story or setting is horrible I tend to lose interest... unless there is a lot of 1 )
3) Challange Easy == Boring
4) Variety ( Generic a la Oblivion no thanks )
5) Explore and freedom
6) Choices
7) Character development, wizardry sets the example here.
......

Wow I will stop otherwise I'll be up all night.

Yes, all very good list especially HiddenX's maybe you all should get together and make a game, while I focus on the vixens!

#1. Scantly clad vixens!

Oh wait, I got distracted what was the question again?

I gotta go with GothGothicness'esesess response.

the game must be
Entertaining
Intriguing
It must make me think

Or at least make me think by entertaining or intriguing me. This is why I also like Adventure games - ones that are not just a series of puzzles strung together with a thin veil of being connected.

A game must have some sort of intrinsic value that doesn't just seem repetitious and soulless to me.

I can enjoy a linear game if its interesting. Open ended games can lack direction. This is why games like Ultima IV and BG's work and Morrowind doesn't. They have a main quest that overarches all the others but you can go about it anytime you wish.

On the opposite end the Icewind Dales work wonderfully. Its intriguing story motivates you towards the goal (the two expansions for the first one fail though). The FF's are just silly button pushing - the games and and cutscenes seem disconnected. Playing is sort of like a lock to get to the next one - one that I'm not the least bit interested in. Playing it is sort of like watching those really long scenes in Matrix 2. Neither the action scenes or the story is all that interesting - its just in love with itself and the money it managed to spend on it.

Diablo 2 is like that too. It failed to keep my interest after 3 days.

"Sundance is weird. The movies are weird. You actually have to think about them when you watch them." - Brittney Spears

CRPG did not mention NPC's and Companions which is important for me.

I like "self-thinking" companions that do not need to agree with the main characters every time they speak. Preferably companions with interesting backgrounds that might also better themselves throughout the game. It's ok if you do not have direct control over them as long as you can follow their stories next to the main characters own story.

Not many games have offered this though. Baldurs Gate 2 did for sure, Gothic 1-3 did, KOTOR ofcourse, Planescape Torment, Fallout & Dungeon Siege II. But I cannot come up with more than that right now.

In order of importance:

1. Story (Well developed characters, dramatic tension, philosophical insights, friendship, romance, enmity, joy, sorrow, kindness, hostility, fear, courage, hope, despair, loyalty, betrayal, deception, humour, irony, mystery, tragedy)
2. Complex moral choices
3. Dynamic world in which the state of the game changes in accodance with the player's action or inaction and then responds realistically to those changes.
4. Big, beautiful, atmospheric environments to explore.
5. Strategic/Tactical challenges (combat, dilplomacy etc.)
6. Everything else on HiddenX's Xcellent list.
Let's hope there is a big fat jolly game developer with a white beard and a sack reading this thread!

I'd love to see a game with...

0) atmosphere and character! I just don't like generic, ruin-of-the-mill fantasy settings with dwarves and elves and wizards with pointy hats...
1) a well developed background, rich lore, a setting with a history
2) complex moral choices with several possible outcomes ; this includes the possibility to talk my way around combat
2) a story tied into the stuff above, preferrably with mean plot twists - or it should at least kindle all kinds of emotions in me, the player (joy, grief, anger... the whole gamut)
3) adjustable difficulty - being able to assign different difficulties to different parts of the game (as in System Shock 1 which had difficulty settings for combat, cyberspace and puzzles, plus a timer)
4) highly interactive surroundings
5) exploration (being able to roam huge stretches of land, different contries or planets, whatever)
6) puzzles which tie into the history and storyline and are thus solvable through either research or thinking or both
7) anything but birdy view
8) memorable bosses and NPCs, multiple possibilities for romance
9) choices regarding gender and looks... and paperdolling would help, too
10) a house of my own (and due to the interactivity I want to be able to do some hardcore interior decoration).

I don't care about stats, levelling, party management etc. I just want to enjoy the feeling without getting tied down by accounting.

Well Jaz, it's the Sims for you!! I'd forgotten about SS having different difficulty sliders for different aspects of the game; it was SO far ahead of its time in SO many ways!! Remember being able to crouch down and then lean out and peer around a corner without being seen; those who still haven't played it really need to!!

I love the Sims, even if it failed in the 'memorable bosses' department.

Morrowind was nearly there with its house-and-interior-decorations aspect. I spent weeks collecting lanterns to put them on the roof of one of my houses so I could see it from afar in the dark, and I spent hours decorating tables with forks and knives and plates and bowls and glasses etc., even arranging the food on the plates. Just wished I could have invited someone for dinner.