Shallow vs deep RPGs

ilm

SasqWatch
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What do you like most? The thread title is a bit of a misnomer as the answer would be quite obvious. Let me clarify: development effort can either be put into a very broad approach in how you can tackle things, but each approach being rather shallow, or have a limited (one?) set of options but each having a detailed deep experience. What if development could only be one of those two, no compromises. What would you choose?

Let me try and give three concrete examples:
1. a lot of simple quests (don't necessarily have to be grind/fetch quests) exploring a lot of different things/themes versus just a couple of very long quest chains where you can empathize with interesting NPCs.

2. What about items and weapons. Focus only on one weapon type but have a very deep upgrade path or have every single weapon type in existence (sword, curved sword, broad sword, cutlass, axe, double axe, battle axe, etc.) with no upgrades. While only one weapon type can still be a bit diverse in how you approach a combat situation (e.g., depending on the upgrades you chose), it will obviously be much more limited.

3. And basically the same for the character creation and leveling. I know a lot of people here like to create their own character with a lot of choice, but also if that means there is little to no reaction from the world to your PC (in essence, your choice didn't really matter)?

I realize there is a bit of a conflict in the explanation as I'm mixing different concepts (choice, replayability, etc). E.g., the amount of choice stays the same whether you have a lot of weapons or a lot of upgrades to chose from but oh well.
 
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No answers?
Maybe the question should have been "simple or complex" RPGs to draw some attention?

Me? You know already that I need a story. Without a story, even if mediocre, any RPG just doesn't belong on my NPC. When I want some storyless fun, I can always play some tetris or candy crush saga.

Never cared about gaming media's "replayability". If a game is great, I'll replay it sometime. It doesn't have to be RPG. I do however hate deliberate "replayability" design which is nothing but grinding a game over and over through a sort of game plus only to reach some specific ending (Nier).

All that aside, my feelings about other game aspects, not in any particular order but from top of my head:
- character creation? I do like when it's rich, but won't cry if it doesn't exist
- skills and attributes? go as complex as possible, although mainstream won't like it
- grinding? hell no, that's outdated design caused by old hardware
- item variety and loot? gimme gimme
- random vs handplaced? if there is a luck stat on your character, random generator, do it, no stat, please no randomness then
- world size? don't care, I need a world variety, not same looking miles of nothingness
- combat? can't care less about it, make anything
- hybridization with other genres? sure! please make RPG and dating sim hybrid next! :D
- survival elements (water, food, shelter, sickness, etc)? If excessive, I'm refunding.
- puzzles? yes, please, plenty!
- quests and sidequests? as many and as different as possible please, unless radiant idiocy, I hate it
- choices and consequences? please make it rich, but that doesn't mean I hate linearity
- crafting? if you roleplay a herbalist, or a blacksmith, or… sure, otherwise remove it!
- visuals? go hairworks (okay, any modern tech) or go home, I admit though that I don't care about visuals if a game is fun, I do however care if it's overhyped yet outdated looks (GTA5)
- music? give it to professionals please, don't try to sell stuff (in RPGs) your 5yr old kid made
- day/time cycles based NPC quest appearances? are you trying to annoy me to death?
- timers? okay, you do, time to commit a suicide or, better, I won't buy that bullshit (any more)

Did I forget something? Most probably I did. Ah well…

[EDIT]yeah:
- controls? "nonstandard" k+m default setup and no remapping options = get off my property

What would some general standard be?
- esc is main manu (options, exit, etc), tab can be sidemenu (inventory, crew, etc)
- backspace is broken on all keyboards (of course it isn't but…), DON'T use it!
- wasd for movement
- c for crouch
- shift for run/walk toggle
- space for jump
- e for using (activating) stuff in the world
- r for reload (weapons, not game)
- j for journal
- m for map
- i for inventory
- f5 for quicksave
 
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I like lots of quests, things to do within the established world. I prefer a large game, something that will take thirty to fifty hours to play through, not something I can simply knock out in ten hours. Character development is a plus, and a great story will draw me in even if the game is a bit on the short side.
 
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Using Joxer's list:
Character Creation: a game loses many points if it doesn't have this. Maybe 15%
Skills and Attributes: probably won't buy if there isn't some non-story form or character growth.
Grinding: If it is optional, sure.
Item variety and loot: Yes, mandatory.
random vs hand placed: I like a mixture.
World Size: go big or go home. I mostly won't download a game with less than 60 hours or non-repeating content.
Combat: meh
Hybrids: I prefer high fantasy to everything else by a very large margin
Survival: Yep, I'm game as long as it isn't too extreme. I play Survival games like The Long Dark and 7 Days to Die, etc.
Puzzles: Not my thing.
Quests and Side quests: Duh! Of course.
Choice and Consequence: Highly over-rated but a few quests like this are okay.
Crafting: Yep, and lots of it please.
Visuals: Vital. I have bad eyesight. Characters need to take up a goodly amount of screen space, so I can actually see them. Big reason why I rarely play party-based games. The characters get too small. Dragon Age is a nice exception.
Music: 90% of the time, I turn it off after 10 minutes. If it orchestral, I leave it on longer. I like Jeremy Soule and a lot of the music in Conan, etc. I don't like modern instruments in games set in fantasy worlds. They're fine in Deus Ex, etc.
Day/Night cycles. Preferred, but I want merchants to be convenient and work 24 hours. Very cool if there is more than one employee. I agree that quest givers should not mind being awakened for quests.
Timers: Never would be fine with me.
Hidden loot and secret locations: Extremely welcome. This is mostly ruined by the Internet, but I still appreciate the attempts.
 
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For me the most interesting part of a cRPG these days is the interaction. I like deep companions that evolve over time and well-developed major NPCs. If I don't feel a connection to the game world, it doesn't hold my interest for long. Flexible, detailed character generation is useful and interesting, but doesn't matter as much over the long haul.
 
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Thanks for the reactions so far. I can distil some things I was looking for but I tend to make things complicated. I think I can almost make a custom recommendation system for Joxer based on the info he gave :)

The shallow vs deep comparison was because I was thinking about a branching dialogue system, which can be viewed as a tree of choices. Each branch a choice leading to a different world state. You rather have a shallow tree (but 1000 of choices at each level), or a deep tree (with only 2-3 choices at each level but previous choices have more impact)?

Or just think it as simple vs complex (or linear vs non-linear) if that makes it easier, although I think those are not really the same.
For me the most interesting part of a cRPG these days is the interaction. I like deep companions that evolve over time and well-developed major NPCs. If I don't feel a connection to the game world, it doesn't hold my interest for long. Flexible, detailed character generation is useful and interesting, but doesn't matter as much over the long haul.
Yes, I like deep companions too. Better one fully fleshed out character than hundreds of empty puppets. I know that some people like the latter as they then have a huge playground to make their own adventure (= Skyrim). They just go for 500 hours playtime :)
 
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I like having a lot of depth but I'm really open as to where that depth might be. It could be a lot of depth in just a few systems or not much depth in several systems.

If you want to have one big, intricate quest with hardly any side quests, that's fine. Some JRPGs do that. Skyrim, on the other hand, didn't have a really large main quest but it tons of sidequests in all sizes. Or maybe your game doesn't have terribly interesting quests at all but the battle system is really fun, which is how Last Remnant kept me playing for so long.

I guess it isn't depth I'm looking for so much as volume. The integral of depth over all gameplay systems?
 
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Hi guys, tell me some really interesting games thanks a lot
 
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Cyberpunk 2077

I guess it isn't depth I'm looking for so much as volume. The integral of depth over all gameplay systems?
So for you it doesn't matter, as long as the amount of 'content' stays the same.

In open world games I'm also bothered that when a new region opens up you get bombarded with a lot of new quests. Besides that it can get overwhelming, those are all very short (and to me uninteresting) quests. Hard to weed out the good ones that really continue a previous storyline.

I saw some gameplay of Days Gone which has an interesting system for questlines. There were about 8 of them each with an unique icon on the map, so you could easily continue the larger storyline of your choice. What's interesting was that sometimes solving one quest would advance multiple questlines at the same time if I understood correctly.
 
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In open world games I'm also bothered that when a new region opens up you get bombarded with a lot of new quests.
That's not just the open world ones. I remember in Baldur's Gate (1?) walking into a town and, as soon as it was loaded, finding multiple NPCs right there, ready to tell me about their problems. I think one or two might have even strode right up to me! It was convenient but pretty immersion busting.

What's interesting was that sometimes solving one quest would advance multiple questlines at the same time if I understood correctly.
That sounds good as long as it's reasonable advancing as long as it isn't some unexpected side effect and definitely not if the unexpected side effect is to suddenly fail another quest. If I do a quest to build a bridge over a river then having some other quests be shorter is great. If the quest to build a bridge results in angering the here-to-fore unmentioned river monster which attacks the town and eats a couple of NPCs that were giving me other quests, not good.
 
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In my opinion, but that's really a personal thing :

Shallow = action RPG
Deep = story RPG
 
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I don't think character creation is a necessary component of a DEEP rpg; what I want to see above all else is a story that the main character shapes. Very few game has meaningful reaction to character choices (can you name one with deep continuous shaping by the main protagonist ? I can't.
 
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This is an interesting question. An RPG can be really well fleshed out in one area for me (what I'd call focused) and still be very enjoyable for me, even if its weak in others. For example, dungeon crawlers like Wizardry 6, Bard's Tale 1-3, Stranger of Sword City, or Elminage:Gothic were all games I really enjoyed because they had a ton of party customization and development options, combat was fun, and the level design was good, even if the story was sort of minimal, gear and exploration were satifactory.
I also really enjoyed Torment, which had a very good story, even if exploration, character development and items were only satifactory and the combat (which was secondary) was wonky.
I also enjoyed Kenshi for its crafting and exploration, even if story was minimal, and combat basic.
So for me a game can "specialize" with depth in few areas, and if that's what the core gameplay is about, I can still enjoy it.

Still when I think of some of the games which are amoung my all time favourites, like Baldur's Gate 2, Knights of the Old Republic, Pillars of Eternity 1 & 2, Wasteland 2, Pathfinder: Kingmaker, Might and Magic X, Vampire:Bloodlines, and Divinity: Original Sin 2, these games are great all-arounders, with depth in multiples areas.
 
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An RPG that is about anything but roleplaying is good to go.
 
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So it's not ugo nor igo but ggo?
 
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As long as there is no roleplaying in it...
 
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