General News - Tropes vs Women

Asdraguuhl said:

I am all for equality between men and women but I am also truly disgusted by the current trends of radical feminism and some of the one-sided government policies that victimise men.

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Didn't notice any radical feminism in her video, rather a well-argued piece that illustrates some of the disturbing ways in which games handle female representations. Not sure how the one-sided government policies that "victimize" men has anything to do with the topic.

teije said:

Didn't notice any radical feminism in her video, rather a well-argued piece that illustrates some of the disturbing ways in which games handle female representations. Not sure how the one-sided government policies that "victimize" men has anything to do with the topic.

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I think you misinterpreted my post as it wasn't directly related to the video. I was simply stating that I am definitely pro-equality but that I despise the extremist point of view of radical feminism and how it can have an unbalancing effect through some "unfortunate" government policies. My point was to make clear that I strongly prefer a balanced middleground and that I do not shy away from criticising extremes even if it may not look like the most politically correct or "white knightish".

Asdraguuhl said:

I think you misinterpreted my post as it wasn't directly related to the video. I was simply stating that I am definitely pro-equality but that I despise the extremist point of view of radical feminism and how it can have an unbalancing effect through some "unfortunate" government policies. My point was to make clear that I strongly prefer a balanced middleground and that I do not shy away from criticising extremes even if it may not look like the most politically correct or "white knightish".

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Thanks for clarifying. It is interesting how what we regard as middleground vs. extremes has shifted over time and across cultures. All of us in the West (except Taliban supporters) would be regarded as radical feminists from the perspective of someone living in 1900.

Having pledged for this on Kickstarter, I'm glad to see Anita seems to have accomplished what she had stated to be her goals in these first two videos, the second of them clearly taking some cues from the feedback to the first.
The trope and sub-tropes are well defined, supported by appropriate examples, scrutinized to highlight their problematic nature regarding both their motivation and effect. Mind, this is just the first of many tropes she has promised to address, and while it is true that Anita has so far withheld exactly how she proposes these problems could be balanced, I believe she has sort of promised to do just that in a later video.

Thus far, she has (carefully) avoided inappropriate generalisations, accusations or general ignorance, something computer games research has famously been often lacking in the past.
I cannot find any misandry or extremism expressed in either video, and while taking some of her earlier work to task for this probably not unfair, it should be considered that her past work did not have nearly as lofty goals (nor as much funding). They were, comparatively, amateur work aimed at a certain, limited audience and can't really be held to the same standards if she eschewed proper scientificity (is that really a word) for a zesty punchline once in a while.

TL/DR: I don't see anything not to like about these two videos.

teije said:

Thanks for clarifying. It is interesting how what we regard as middleground vs. extremes has shifted over time and across cultures. All of us in the West (except Taliban supporters) would be regarded as radical feminists from the perspective of someone living in 1900.

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When I say "radical feminism" I mean it from a Western point of view and I explicitly add the term "radical" to distinguish between feminism, the positive ideal, and the extremist view.

Please, don't tell me you assumed me to be one of those "traditionalists" with their minds set in ancient times .

Asdraguuhl said:

Please, don't tell me you assumed me to be one of those "traditionalists" with their minds set in ancient times .

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No worries, I didn't. I have learned never to assume anything about anybody on the internet. Chances are high that I will be wrong

TheMadGamer said:

I've noticed that the only time you respond to anything I write is to rip me to shreds. Don't really know why you have it out for me.

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Really? Certainly not intended - hadn't even noticed who wrote the original. I was reacting to the content and context. And to an extent, I think many of us agree - there is ongoing discrimination and there has never been even close to equality to the dominant white Christian male in the US. BUT ... that doesn't legitimize every complaint about discrimination, nor does it mean that every white male is guilty until proven innocent of 'white privilege' behavior. Ultimately though, all I was saying was that just because it is better doesn't mean it is gone ... even if it is tiresome.

txa1265 said:

Really? Certainly not intended - hadn't even noticed who wrote the original.

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txa1265 said:

Um, yeah … sorry but the fact that you find reminders of violence, discrimination and mistreatment 'tiresome' says more about you than about the people who suffer these injustices.

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Your response to me was a bullet point list of conclusions you assume I presume. Took me an hour to pull out all the words you stuffed into my mouth.

It's not at all that I don't think human rights of any kind are unimportant or that such movements have achieved every single goal they might have - that there isn't still more work to be done. Like many people who post here, my views on any specific area of human rights could fill a book - these forums are not the right place for such lengthy diatribes.

My exhaustion comes from the idea that when I play games part of what I want to escape from real life are issues like these. That's just me, personally. I have no problem at all with what this woman wrote and I even said up front that she has a point.

And if I were a woman I too would probably be pretty sick and tired of graphical presentations of females with a 1 inch waste and boobs that weigh 50 pounds each… and oh yeah let's not forget they have to be saved from some great evil because they're totally helpless. Even as a man I'm tired of it. These kinds of depictions of female characters is probably part of why I don't like anime… but I digress.

But as a gamer, and an old fart, I really want to escape, just for a moment while I play games (or read about games on websites like this), the polarization that is going on in the world now on pretty much any given subject. Hope this line of reasoning sounds more reasonable to you and that you catch my drift that I don't quite fit into the black/white cubby hole you were trying to pound me into.

TheMadGamer said:

But as a gamer, and an old fart, I really want to escape, just for a moment while I play games (or read about games on websites like this), the polarization that is going on in the world now on pretty much any given subject. Hope this line of reasoning sounds more reasonable to you and that you catch my drift that I don't quite fit into the black/white cubby hole you were trying to pound me into.

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So that is escaping a polarized world by moving to another polarized world? One thing is sure: you do not escape polarization with that move.

Male audience = appealing to males.

This will include fantasies of all sorts. Some games have super bad-ass women who can dominate every man they come across. That's another fantasy.

When girls start buying more games - these fantasies will slowly change until they're balanced.

Until then, shut up about an industry you don't really care about that others created - and which you know next to nothing about.

ChienAboyeur said:

Her report of the situation is the result of players playing games for the story or the immersion and not for a gameplay. They push the demand for this kind of tropes.

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Well, I certainly play games for the immersion and ascapism they offer. Not for what you call "gameplay", though game mechanics of course provide a necessary foundation for the actual content. And, while being male myself, I certainly don't push for, or even approve of, this kind of tropes.

ChienAboyeur said:

When you play a game for gaming, the avatar's skin does not matter at all. It can be a monkey, a squid alien, anything. Game mechanics prevail.

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Yes, but who plays like that? Sure, some basic games, like Tetris, are like that. But this is an RPG site, and no RPG is anything like that. No matter how you define the genre, role playing is about immersion, about playing a role. If you focus on the numbers, rather than their context, you might be playing, but not role playing. It doesn't matter whether your character is gloriously rendered in HD3D or merely described in words. Who this character is in the game world is front and center. The mechanics have no other function than to support that.

ChienAboyeur said:

You dont care about the justification used to introduce a new stage. You could go after a damsel in distress or your lost marbles, it is the same. It just introduces the new stage and its gameplay.

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Do you actually believe that? I would like to mention that ever better graphics has been the main drive in the evolution of computer and video games, and rest my case, because the way you reason, graphics wouldn't matter.

ChienAboyeur said:

It is when you demand story or immersion you need to be able to relate to the various NPCs etc as you need to associate closely to the decorum.

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And I believe that most RPG players demand story and immersion. Bad game mechanics can break a game for sure, but good mechanics don't make a game.

ChienAboyeur said:

It is a totally different dimension from gaming.

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But not all of us care about "gaming". I consider myself a hardcore gamer, because I spend an inordinate ammount of time and money on games, but I don't even like "gaming".

Games that let the player choose the gender of the protagonist are simply better games for it. Player choice is a good thing.

Saints Row 3, though not the greatest game in other ways, has the best character creation system I've seen in this respect, allowing the player to adjust character gender with a slider, offering a range from the most feminine to the most masculine, including anything in between.

All games should strive for something like this, I think. If you want to tell a specific story about a specific character, you are better off writing a book or making a movie.

One (though not the only) reason a game like Two Worlds II is inferior to a game like Skyrim, is that you have to play a rather obnoxious male character.

DArtagnan said:

Male audience = appealing to males.

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Assuming all males want the same thing, which they don't.

DArtagnan said:

When girls start buying more games - these fantasies will slowly change until they're balanced.

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It's a chicken and egg situation, isn't it? Why would girls start buying more games if they don't find the games on offer appealing? I believe that the problem lies within the industry. Most people working as game designers are men. When game companies start hiring more women, things will change.

Mr Smiley said:

Assuming all males want the same thing, which they don't.

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Which is why there are many different fantasies in games, like I just said.

Most developers are males - and they will naturally include fantasies of all sorts that appeal both narrow and wide, depending on the size of the target audience.

It's a chicken and egg situation, isn't it? Why would girls start buying more games if they don't find the games on offer appealing? I believe that the problem lies within the industry. Most people working as game designers are men. When game companies start hiring more women, things will change.

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Because there are lots and lots of games that aren't sexist in that way. It's a matter of opening your eyes and nothing more.

If games appealed to women more - they'd be playing them more.

Eventually, they WILL appeal more to women - because it's a growing industry and I have absolutely no doubt that the number one reason women aren't playing is ignorance of gaming - and secondary reasons include cultural stigmas and so forth. Part of the ignorance is that so many women think it's nothing but overly sexist male fantasies - which is bullshit.

ChienAboyeur said:

So that is escaping a polarized world by moving to another polarized world? One thing is sure: you do not escape polarization with that move.

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It's not the same because a game world is not real. In a typical RPG, I'll slay thousands of humanoids, animals, and other various creatures without much of a second thought if it suits my character to do so. In real life, if I accidentally kicked and injured a puppy, I'd be sad about it. Games <> real life and no amount of suspension of disbelief with a game will evoke the same level of emotions or concern as real life does (at least for me).