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July 7th, 2018, 16:14
Originally Posted by Cacheperl View Post
Ok, but language and communication are not limited to any strict logic like that.

See, if someone points a gun at you and tells you "Hey buddy, it's totally optional, but could you please be so kind to give me your wallet?", I bet you would understand that despite the factual truth that giving him the wallet is optional, you might be disinclined to take the alternative option.

Yes, I imply that Bioware is robbing us. Of a good game they could have made if they didnt sell out years ago…
Yes, it has nothing to do with logic - it's reductive semantic pedantry as a rhetorical device.
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July 7th, 2018, 16:16
Originally Posted by Darth Tagnan View Post
Hey, man, I get that you guys are hating on this online/mp thing because of your predisposition - and I'm not getting into that with you.
It's a hating on Bioware thing. If this were Borderlands 3 nobody would be moaning.
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July 7th, 2018, 16:33
Originally Posted by Silver Coin View Post
It's a hating on Bioware thing.
Why by gorge this man figured it out.

Now figure out why we hate BioWare.

I used to defend this company on every thread against other members. Just ask Dart and a few other longtime members about how I used to attack criticism of BioWare.

My blinders are off and I see nothing I like anymore. Just a soulless EA puppet.
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July 7th, 2018, 16:41
Originally Posted by Cacheperl View Post
Ok, but language and communication are not limited to any strict logic like that.

See, if someone points a gun at you and tells you "Hey buddy, it's totally optional, but could you please be so kind to give me your wallet?", I bet you would understand that despite the factual truth that giving him the wallet is optional, you might be disinclined to take the alternative option.

Yes, I imply that Bioware is robbing us. Of a good game they could have made if they didnt sell out years ago…
What you don't seem to understand is that I'm not saying the options are equal, good or bad.

I'm saying that in Anthem, you can play alone or you can play with others.

Since I haven't played the game and we only have few details about what it's going to include - beyond shooting stuff and looking good - I wouldn't know if playing alone is going to be interesting.

I must say I have absolutely no idea how this relates to your robbing scenario.

Are you somehow implying that people are going to feel pressured into inviting other people to play with them or something?

I must say, I find that an amusing scenario - but also a scenario that's highly improbable.

But I'll be here conceding that if real gun violence gets involved in the choice, the degree to which playing alone is optional is up for debate.

Until then, however, I'd say any pressure involved would be of the imaginary kind.

Like when people pretend that logic isn't logic - but can't logically dispute it
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July 7th, 2018, 16:45
Originally Posted by Silver Coin View Post
It's a hating on Bioware thing. If this were Borderlands 3 nobody would be moaning.
I don't think this is just hating Bioware - though it's obviously a part of it.

Nah, I think it's more that people feel naturally protective of something they like - and they fear what they don't understand.

I find that most people who dislike games with optional multiplayer elements are those who've never really played them much at all.

Makes sense, of course, but it also means your experience with what can be good about such things is extremely limited.

In that same way, I don't like jrpgs - and I haven't played them much at all.

But then I don't have to know why they're good - I just know that other people find them great - and so I have no reason to get in the way.

I mean, I might have had a (very selfish) reason to get in the way, if jrpgs were the only rpgs out there - but then they're not.

Same goes for Anthem and multiplayer games.
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July 7th, 2018, 17:31
Originally Posted by Darth Tagnan View Post
What you don't seem to understand is that I'm not saying the options are equal, good or bad.

I'm saying that in Anthem, you can play alone or you can play with others.

Since I haven't played the game and we only have few details about what it's going to include - beyond shooting stuff and looking good - I wouldn't know if playing alone is going to be interesting.

I must say I have absolutely no idea how this relates to your robbing scenario.

Are you somehow implying that people are going to feel pressured into inviting other people to play with them or something?

I must say, I find that an amusing scenario - but also a scenario that's highly improbable.

But I'll be here conceding that if real gun violence gets involved in the choice, the degree to which playing alone is optional is up for debate.

Until then, however, I'd say any pressure involved would be of the imaginary kind.

Like when people pretend that logic isn't logic - but can't logically dispute it
I think what Cacheperl is saying is obvious and straightforward.

Language is not a perfectly logical construct - if we wanted to communicate directly in logical terms, we'd have to speak mathematics. When two honest actors engage in a discussion, they parse what the other has said, try to be sure they have their meaning, and translate it into the logical position with which to argue. A less constructive participant searches for pedantic opportunities to find ambiguities in the syntax, and attacks them instead.

Cacheperl's example of whether something is optional at gunpoint is very clear, and it is obviously intended to illustrate this; it depends on the interpretation of "optional" in the given context, and it is not "getting logical on our asses" to insist on the more absolute sense, and then criticize the result. Clearly, the point was not to suggest that multiplayer in Anthem is forced on us at the equivalent of gunpoint - another deliberately obtuse misreading of the point, all the easier to argue with.
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July 7th, 2018, 17:34
@Ripper

We can have a talk when your ego is out of the way. I'm not really into these pissing contests for no other reason than you needing to make an enemy out of me to feel better about yourself

I know you're not capable of it, but you could give me a chance and not interpret everything I say in the worst way imaginable and take it at face value, instead of conjuring up all these stupid motives that I don't have.
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July 7th, 2018, 17:38
(Assuming you can let go of your ego) Since you feel the need to speak for Cacheperl - then do me the favor and explain exactly how the multiplayer in Anthem is not optional.
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July 7th, 2018, 17:39
Originally Posted by Darth Tagnan View Post
What you don't seem to understand is that I'm not saying the options are equal, good or bad.

I'm saying that in Anthem, you can play alone or you can play with others.
Yup, we agree on both points here. I did not intend to claim otherwise.

Originally Posted by Darth Tagnan View Post
Since I haven't played the game and we only have few details about what it's going to include - beyond shooting stuff and looking good - I wouldn't know if playing alone is going to be interesting.
And that's where we disagree. We know more than that. (my earlier examples: squadmates, always online.)

Originally Posted by Darth Tagnan View Post
I must say I have absolutely no idea how this relates to your robbing scenario.
I think you got the general idea, even if not from this scenario.


Originally Posted by Darth Tagnan View Post
Are you somehow implying that people are going to feel pressured into inviting other people to play with them or something?

I must say, I find that an amusing scenario - but also a scenario that's highly improbable.

But I'll be here conceding that if real gun violence gets involved in the choice, the degree to which playing alone is optional is up for debate.

Until then, however, I'd say any pressure involved would be of the imaginary kind.
Well, you decided to take my analogy in a very literal way. But do you seriously dispute that a game can be designed to favor multiplayer over singleplayer? There are plenty of examples for games that enforce playing multiplayer (despite single player being an option). Nearly every MMORPG out there, but also some non-massive games like Path of Exile.

Originally Posted by Darth Tagnan View Post
Like when people pretend that logic isn't logic - but can't logically dispute it
Ah, people, you know how they are. But they can't help it. It's a bioLogical thing.
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July 7th, 2018, 17:40
Originally Posted by Darth Tagnan View Post
@Ripper

We can have a talk when your ego is out of the way. I'm not really into these pissing contests for no other reason than you needing to make an enemy out of me to feel better about yourself

I know you're not capable of it, but you could give me a chance and not interpret everything I say in the worst way imaginable and take it at face value, instead of conjuring up all these stupid motives that I don't have.
Another sound argument.

My ego really has nothing to do with it. If you're going to condescend to people by claiming to "get logical on their asses", while doing anything but, I might call you out on it. If you didn't take such a high-handed attitude, I wouldn't feel as tempted to fix your wagon.
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July 7th, 2018, 17:42
Well, I think you decided to take my analogy in a very literal way. But do you seriously dispute that a game can be designed to favor multiplayer over singleplayer? There are plenty of examples for games that enforce playing multiplayer (despite single player being an option). Nearly every MMORPG out there, but also some non-massive games like Path of Exile.
Ahh, so when you're saying singleplayer is optional - you're saying it's not actually DESIGNED as a singleplayer game first and foremost?

Well, I definitely agree with that.

But you must understand that I - and many others - CAN enjoy playing solo in games like this.

To me, it's not really important that it's designed as a singleplayer game first.

What matters is if the singleplayer can be enjoyable - and it CAN be in many such games, including games like Destiny and Division.

I would assume Anthem to be no different in that way.

But, clearly, it's mostly meant to be played with friends. I don't think there's any disputing that.
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July 7th, 2018, 17:43
Originally Posted by Ripper View Post
Another sound argument.

My ego really has nothing to do with it. If you're going to condescend to people by claiming to "get logical on their asses", while doing anything but, I might call you out on it. If you didn't take such a high-handed attitude, I wouldn't feel as tempted to fix your wagon.
It's cool - Cache spoke for himself
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July 7th, 2018, 17:46
@Cacheperl

Just to clarify:

Multiplayer isn't really optional if the game isn't strictly designed around singleplayer?
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July 7th, 2018, 17:48
Originally Posted by Darth Tagnan View Post
It's cool - Cache spoke for himself
I'm not entirely sure why you think I'm trying to speak for Cacheperl, who clearly needs no assistance. On a forum, sometimes other people might interject into a conversation.

Also, I thought your reply addressed me indirectly, as is your wont.
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July 7th, 2018, 17:50
@Ripper

As I said, it's cool - I got my answer
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July 7th, 2018, 17:52
Yup, cool.

I concede that even I might enjoy the game. In fact, the action looks much more interesting than, e.g., the combat in Mass Effect 2.
I'd enjoy it much more (to the point where I'd even decide to buy it) if it was designed as a single player game.


Originally Posted by Darth Tagnan View Post
@Cacheperl

Just to clarify:

Multiplayer isn't really optional if the game isn't strictly designed around singleplayer?
Ok, I am getting confused right here.
I think: yes.
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July 7th, 2018, 17:57
Originally Posted by Cacheperl View Post
Yup, cool.

I concede that even I might enjoy the game. In fact, the action looks much more interesting than, e.g., the combat in Mass Effect 2.
I'd enjoy it much more (to the point where I'd even decide to buy it) if it was designed as a single player game.
Now, that makes sense to me.

Yeah, I would enjoy it more in SINGLEPLAYER as well, if it was designed around singleplayer.

Fortunately for me, I enjoy both singleplayer and multiplayer - and I genuinely enjoy this kind of game more in multiplayer than I would in singleplayer, if it had been designed as a singleplayer game.

I'm a huge fan of cooperative gameplay.

Well, to be fair - it's not like I can predict the future or how an alternate timeline would have worked.

But I still suspect Anthem will be very, very much like Destiny - and, in that way, it's a great multiplayer experience.

However, truth be told - who knows what the game would have been as a singleplayer only game.

I find it unlikely that it would have been much like Anthem at all.

I also suspect that's why people are so upset with this game - because they feel like Bioware should be catering to their needs instead of the needs of multiplayer fans.

I can understand that - I suppose.

But it's not like we're drowning in Bioware multiplayer games.

There's no reason to think they'll never make another singleplayer only game - and even if they did, the old Bioware is long gone - so maybe there's really nothing to be upset about at all?
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July 7th, 2018, 18:11
Not upset, but maybe some outspoken melancholy here and there?
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July 7th, 2018, 18:14
Originally Posted by Cacheperl View Post
Not upset, but maybe some outspoken melancholy here and there?
I admit, I sometimes - unfairly - mix similar responses together.

We must remember that we're all individuals.

It's just that the responses to Bioware games tend to be extremely vocal and one-sided.

It feels a little funny to be slightly defensive on their behalf, because I never liked Bioware games all that much.

Well, not true - I adore KotOR and NWN - but that's loooong ago.

I think it's because I accepted the decline of the old Bioware much sooner than the average fan.

That, and the fact that I'm one of the few people around here who seem to genuinely enjoy cooperative multiplayer games.

Which is odd, I think. I mean, it's not like I'm a social type of person or anything. But I do have a few friends - and I would have thought most of you do, as well.

It really is a great thing to share games with friends.
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July 7th, 2018, 18:23
Originally Posted by Darth Tagnan View Post
I'm one of the few people around here who seem to genuinely enjoy cooperative multiplayer games.
Spoken as true Darth Tagnan.
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