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June 26th, 2020, 16:43
So…what are we to do about this?

Should we burn all Avelone games and not buy any new ones? Should we ban any mention of Chris in a positive light here?

If not, does that make RPGWatch the new RPGCodex? (before the Codex declined)

Discuss!!
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June 26th, 2020, 19:28
Originally Posted by Couchpotato View Post
Seems the women who posted on Twitter was his Ex apparently.

He talked about that with his apology.

I see this happen a lot on Twitter. The biggest case was the guy from AMC who was defamed, de-platformed, and won the end. Even got his job back and compensation.

His name was Chris Hardwic.
I would wary about this being about an EX out to get revenge then.
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June 26th, 2020, 21:43
I don't think the initial accusation was from his Ex, but it included claims about his Ex.

Originally Posted by Andhaira View Post
If not, does that make RPGWatch the new RPGCodex?
We need both. Balance is key.

*+1 point towards True Neutral alignment*
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June 26th, 2020, 22:19
I'm vehemently against any kind of sexual violence or abuse.

But Avellone… There isn't actually anything here, is there?

The WORST thing he has (maybe) done is that some woman got dead-drunk, went to hotel room with him, and made out with him. They didn't have sex. And now she blames him for taking advantage, and apparently for making her drink. As if he water-boarded her with alcohol.

Stuff like that happens to EVERYONE who drinks too much. It has for sure happened to me many times. And I mean the "victim" part. But still I'm not publicly accusing those girls for taking advantage of me…

Grow a spine.

Guy might be a pig, especially if he's married, like someone said. But so far it seems like the accusations don't hold any kind of water.
Last edited by tuukka; June 26th, 2020 at 22:30.
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June 27th, 2020, 13:43
Originally Posted by Stingray View Post
That's silly. Nothing he's done calls for any sort of public apology, and you have no idea what he's said privately to the particular people involved. Just because one of those people wants to form up a Cancel Culture Mob against him doesn't mean he needs to play along. That never goes well and I'm glad to see he's avoided falling into the trap (so far).
Stingray,

You and I are in complete agreement.

Mythros said that Chris has no respect for women, that he is a creep, and that his apologies meant that 'it' happened. I pointed out that the apology did NOT reinforce those assertions.

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June 27th, 2020, 14:00
I won't jump to conclusions for or against him. I know nothing of either of them, really.

I do however want to address some of the things written in this thread:

1. It is pretty easy to get someone drunker than they were planning. Especially if one person is used to drinking and the other is not.

2. Power imbalance makes it harder to say no. It can be physical, intellectual, money etc. It also makes unwanted advances more threatening.

3. How someone appears to the public is not necessarily indicative of how they behave in private.

4. It is generally a bad idea to try to apply personal experiences to someone else's. Just because one person can shake it off as nothing, doesn't mean that another person who cannot is wrong. Or right. People just react in different ways.


That said: I have no idea what happened. I just want to make clear that the story told is possible and therefore assuming the women lie is also jumping to conclusions.
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June 27th, 2020, 14:18
Alcohol decreases inhibition, which means we do things we normally wouldn't do. I mean, that's part of the reason why a lot of people, me included, drink. The problem of course is that normally decent guys and gals can become creeps if drunk enough.

If I were famous I would probably never drink (at least not in public), because of that. Luckily I'm not, so once or twice a year I go wild
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June 27th, 2020, 16:31
Originally Posted by SveNitoR View Post
I won't jump to conclusions for or against him. I know nothing of either of them, really.

I do however want to address some of the things written in this thread:

1. It is pretty easy to get someone drunker than they were planning. Especially if one person is used to drinking and the other is not.

2. Power imbalance makes it harder to say no. It can be physical, intellectual, money etc. It also makes unwanted advances more threatening.

3. How someone appears to the public is not necessarily indicative of how they behave in private.

4. It is generally a bad idea to try to apply personal experiences to someone else's. Just because one person can shake it off as nothing, doesn't mean that another person who cannot is wrong. Or right. People just react in different ways.


That said: I have no idea what happened. I just want to make clear that the story told is possible and therefore assuming the women lie is also jumping to conclusions.
1. I think it's very hard to get someone drink alcohol against their will. You have to either force them, or to threaten them. Also Avellone was probably drunk as well, as he is known as a heavy drinker, according to the article. You can pressure someone, if you have a clear authority over them: Boss, parent, etc. But apparently that is not the case here.

2. So if you are more intelligent, you can make people to drink against their will? Or Avellone used his physical size to intimate the woman in a bar and made her drink against her will? Or because he is more rich than the woman she felt that she had to drink, or otherwise Avellone was going to use his money to cause her harm? Doesn't sound like a proper argument to me. If it were an employer/employee relationship, then there would be a point, but if there was such relationship, it most likely would have been mentioned. After all the woman is trying he best to show Avellone in bad light, and it would certainly help her agenda, if it were an employee/employer relationship.

3. No comment on this, as I don't really know Avellone's public persona.

4. You can cite personal experiences if they make an overall, generalized point. Which is what I did. If you do consensual kissing with someone when you are drunk, it's still consensual.

…Guy could be a sleaze and a bully for all I know. But so far there haven't been anything but empty words.
Last edited by tuukka; June 27th, 2020 at 16:46.
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June 27th, 2020, 17:20
Originally Posted by SveNitoR View Post
It is pretty easy to get someone drunker than they were planning. Especially if one person is used to drinking and the other is not.
Originally Posted by tuukka View Post
1. I think it's very hard to get someone drink alcohol against their will.
Your statement does not match with the one you have quoted.

It wasn't clear to me whether you were expanding on it, or whether you are going for a strawman.
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June 27th, 2020, 18:00
Originally Posted by Cacheperl View Post
Your statement does not match with the one you have quoted.

It wasn't clear to me whether you were expanding on it, or whether you are going for a strawman.
How do you make someone drunker than they "plan" to be? How do you define the line where you are making someone more drunk (by drinking with him) than he wants to be? How can you even know what his plan is? Is it really your fault if he gets drunk?

If someone wants to drink until he is drunk, regardless of his original "plan", then he *wants* it. Nobody is forcing him. How exactly do you make someone drunk against their will? Because their own will defines how drunk they will be. This was my point, as should have been clear, in the context of my post.

Adults have a responsibility for themselves.

It's not even close to being a strawman argument.
Last edited by tuukka; June 27th, 2020 at 18:12.
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June 27th, 2020, 18:36
Originally Posted by tuukka View Post
How do you make someone drunker than they "plan" to be? How do you define the line where you are making someone more drunk (by drinking with him) than he wants to be? How can you even know what his plan is? Is it really your fault if he gets drunk?

If someone wants to drink until he is drunk, regardless of his original "plan", then he *wants* it. Nobody is forcing him.
Peer pressure. Making drinks stronger than they are intended to be. Filling up glasses or reordering without asking, despite clearly seeing that the other party is already inebriated. And so on and so forth.

There's no black and white situation in cases like that, where you are either getting drunk by your own choice or are made drunk by someone else. And still, there's clearly an agressive part on the actions described above.

Since we are asking questions: You think it is perfectly fine social behavior to put pressure on other people to get drunk? Because they can say always no? All fair game unless you force them physically?

Adults have a responsibility for themselves.
Which includes responsibility for their actions towards other people.

It's not even close to being a strawman argument.
It seems pretty close. There's a huge difference in forcing someone to drink, and getting someone more dunk than they intended to.
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June 27th, 2020, 19:52
Originally Posted by Cacheperl View Post
Peer pressure. Making drinks stronger than they are intended to be. Filling up glasses or reordering without asking, despite clearly seeing that the other party is already inebriated. And so on and so forth.

There's no black and white situation in cases like that, where you are either getting drunk by your own choice or are made drunk by someone else. And still, there's clearly an agressive part on the actions described above.

Since we are asking questions: You think it is perfectly fine social behavior to put pressure on other people to get drunk? Because they can say always no? All fair game unless you force them physically?


Which includes responsibility for their actions towards other people.



It seems pretty close. There's a huge difference in forcing someone to drink, and getting someone more dunk than they intended to.
You *notice* when you are getting drunk. You are talking like he spiked her drink, or something. If you are getting too drunk, you should go to sleep, not drink more.

It's typical that people change their "intentions" or "plans" when they drink. This is not somebody else's fault. If you change your plan or intention, then it's your own fault.

Again, we are talking about adults here. Not children. Adults have to carry responsibility for their own actions. This is also a reason why none of the things mentioned are illegal. We can't assume that adults are like toddlers. If we do that, it becomes rather difficult to emphasize what is wrong, and what is right. *Everything* becomes a grey area, and you can accuse everyone of everything.

The aggressive element you mention is in her comments towards Avellone, not vice versa.
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June 27th, 2020, 19:53
Originally Posted by Cacheperl View Post
Peer pressure.
Tell me more about the evils of peer pressure and how weak minded people are susceptible to doing all kinds of evil in the name of social reputation…
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June 27th, 2020, 20:38
Originally Posted by tuukka View Post
You *notice* when you are getting drunk. You are talking like he spiked her drink, or something. If you are getting too drunk, you should go to sleep, not drink more.

It's typical that people change their "intentions" or "plans" when they drink. This is not somebody else's fault. If you change your plan or intention, then it's your own fault.

Again, we are talking about adults here. Not children. Adults have to carry responsibility for their own actions. This is also a reason why none of the things mentioned are illegal. We can't assume that adults are like toddlers. If we do that, it becomes rather difficult to emphasize what is wrong, and what is right. *Everything* becomes a grey area, and you can accuse everyone of everything.

The aggressive element you mention is in her comments towards Avellone, not vice versa.
Funny how I never made a statement about "her". Or "him".

See, you are going for the strawman again. Well then, I'll let Mr. Strawman answer this, since my own reasoning seems not to have reached you.


Also: Hi @lackblogger.
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June 27th, 2020, 20:46
Sooooo… about that interview…
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June 27th, 2020, 21:08
Why do people assume that just because a person helped create some good video games that they're somehow incapable of being a predator?

The evidence here seems pretty thin so I'm not jumping to any conclusions and a lot of it is "she said" even if there are at least two separate accounts.

Originally Posted by tuukka View Post
Stuff like that happens to EVERYONE who drinks too much.
Disagree and I get really tired of alcohol being used as an excuse for behavior.

Alcohol removes inhibitions but the thoughts have to be there to begin with - alcohol doesn't just turn people into rapists randomly.

If alcohol is really such a problem it shouldn't be in advertisements all over everything and should require a prescription for medicinal use only. Alcohol is too often a factor in vehicular homicides, child abuse, spouse abuse, rape, and more. Yet the far less harmful weed is either illegal or requires a prescription. Alcohol = money for big business so all the problems it causes are accepted.
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June 27th, 2020, 21:12
Originally Posted by tuukka View Post
1. I think it's very hard to get someone drink alcohol against their will. You have to either force them, or to threaten them. Also Avellone was probably drunk as well, as he is known as a heavy drinker, according to the article. You can pressure someone, if you have a clear authority over them: Boss, parent, etc. But apparently that is not the case here.

2. So if you are more intelligent, you can make people to drink against their will? Or Avellone used his physical size to intimate the woman in a bar and made her drink against her will? Or because he is more rich than the woman she felt that she had to drink, or otherwise Avellone was going to use his money to cause her harm? Doesn't sound like a proper argument to me. If it were an employer/employee relationship, then there would be a point, but if there was such relationship, it most likely would have been mentioned. After all the woman is trying he best to show Avellone in bad light, and it would certainly help her agenda, if it were an employee/employer relationship.

3. No comment on this, as I don't really know Avellone's public persona.

4. You can cite personal experiences if they make an overall, generalized point. Which is what I did. If you do consensual kissing with someone when you are drunk, it's still consensual.

…Guy could be a sleaze and a bully for all I know. But so far there haven't been anything but empty words.
You misunderstood most of my post. Maybe I wasn't expressing myself clearly. And it wasn't aimed at you specifically. Let me try to write it better:

1. If someone intends to drink nothing it would be hard to mage then drink, yes. However if someone intends to have "a few drinks" it is pretty easy to get them to drink more, hence why I wrote "drunker": fill up their glass, say cheers a few more times, make it a game, challenge them, order a big bottle, bring some shots, say "don't be boring" or "one more drink isn't gonna hurt" and so on.

I mean, this is what drinking buddies usually do to each other, albeit usually not with any malice behind it.

2. My point wasn't about drinking or about avellone. It was about how power imbalance in general makes it harder to say no. It can be in a situation with alcohol, with sex, with asking favors or something else.

It is hard saying no in general (most people prefer to make other people happy. In general saying yes makes people happy, no makes them disappointed), and even harder saying it to someone with more power than you. When someone says "why didn't they just say no?" they miss this part.

For example: If a woman grabs a man's ass, the man can be pretty certain that she can't force him to do anything physically, but if you turn it around, the man usually can force the woman. Therefore women get more scared, in general, by having their assess grabbed.

3. Same for me. It was just a comment on it being irrelevant anyway. Lots of "stand up citizens" have done shitty things.

4. Yes, you can use personal experiences to try to make a generalized point (even though one data point is shaky ground to generalize from). What one shouldn't do, though, is to apply that generalization to another specific situation. Because the conditions can be vastly different. And even if they aren't, people react differently.

For example : Only about one in seven to one in six of victims of severe violence get PTSD (a lot more do get PTSD if the crime is sexual in nature, though) . Is one reaction more valid than the other just because it is more common? Should a person who had an easy time forgetting/dealing with the problem, claim that their experience and reaction was more valid than the person who reacted more strongly? Personally, I think not. Anyone is free to disagree, though.

Please note that the examples I use are not in any way related to what avellone did or did not do. I have no clue about that. They are simply there to illustrate what I was trying to communicate in my earlier post.

And they are also not aimed at anyone in particular in this thread. I just read similar opinions whenever similar news surface and thought I should write something for once.
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June 27th, 2020, 21:44
Originally Posted by lackblogger View Post
Tell me more about the evils of peer pressure and how weak minded people are susceptible to doing all kinds of evil in the name of social reputation…
Peer pressure is pretty straightforward. Human beings used to die if we were thrown out from our tribe. Therefore it is deeply ingrained in most of us to try to please other people.

There have been some pretty interesting studies on this showing that most of us, in situations where we disagree with a group consensus, still follow it anyway. The conclusion seems to be that we prefer to be wrong together with our group rather than risk being the only one who is wrong. Because then we risk being ostracized. Every time we go against our group our brain warns is that it is a stupid risk to take.

Of course, as with all human behavior, there are exceptions, both individually, culturally and due to the specific situation. We are both individuals and social creatures.
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June 27th, 2020, 22:07
Originally Posted by tuukka View Post
You *notice* when you are getting drunk. You are talking like he spiked her drink, or something. If you are getting too drunk, you should go to sleep, not drink more.

It's typical that people change their "intentions" or "plans" when they drink. This is not somebody else's fault. If you change your plan or intention, then it's your own fault.
If one drinks a lot and drinks slowly it is easy to notice when one is getting close to "too drunk". If one is unused to it however, or if the pace of drinking is fast it becomes harder. It can be just half a drink extra to some to go from tipsy to really drunk. And it is easy to have a few beers before it really hits you if the pace is high. Most people who drink have, at least once, suddenly noticed how drunk they are as they stand up after a few drinks.

And of course the logical choice is to go home. Alcohol, however, has a strong effect on the prefrontal cortex and the amygdala. It makes it harder to think logically and makes you less anxious. That's a recipe for bad decisions and has little to do with planning at that stage of drunkenness.

That's why it can seem like a really good idea to have another drink five minutes before the bar closes. Logic and fear of bad consequences left the building a long time ago at that point.

(And this is just the acute effects of alcohol. Long term heavy consumption has a lot of bad effects, and the dependence will wreck logic and choice with a sledge hammer. I know, I know this part in parentheses has nothing to do with your post, but I just find drug and alcohol abuse such an interesting subject )

The most logical choice would be to not drink alcohol at all, or at least to have a hard limit on the amount of pure alcohol to ingest. But where's the fun in that?

Well, I'm gonna stop posting here now. I just can't seem to stay on topic… Have a good morning/day/evening all of you!
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June 27th, 2020, 23:51
A couple of simple questions: have you ever gotten drunk at a party and hit on somebody (successful or not)? If you have, do you deserve to be publicly humiliated and lose your job (possibly for life)?
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