Like I said too harsh and your standards are too high. Depth's of Peril was more than just interesting, but you can't get over the graphics. Ok, that's your choice. You lose out on a truly wonderful game though.
KOTC absolutely brilliant combat simulator. Not just a simple retreading, but an improvement in every sense of the word. I've waited a long time for AIs to get that good.
Devil Whiskey may be ancient ground, but how many Bard's Tale/Wizardry games blob type games are being made anymore? They did try to improve it in some ways like with crafting, but in the end the bugs and lack of support (devs just disappeared) hurt that game.
You didn't mention Omega Syndrome? 50s style Fallout spy game. Granted you can't buy it anymore, but that one is a lot of fun.
Cthulhu Saves the World??? Not one jab at that one. That is on about as familiar ground as you can get being a JRPG, but the wit and setting are what sets it apart from the pack.
Dwarf Fortress, if you say this is familiar grounds then this conversation is over. Your standards are way to high then. That game is brilliant. Difficult to get into and learn, but absolutely brilliant.
Ledgermain (didn't mention this one and I should have) taken the old Rogue setting and imrpoved it with an actual story. Great game.
I could go on and on and on and frankly I feel like I'm just pointing out the obvious. Some take games and improve them. Some don't. Some offer something new and some just give you what is not being made available anymore. Which is fine by me. I would love to see more Dungeon Keeper, X-Com (real x-com), blob style rpgs, or even just good ol' fashioned party tb rpgs. I'm happy with that.
Oh well, try out a few that I mentioned that you didin't play. Especially if you like strategy games then try out Solium Infernum or Armageddon Empires. Nice artwork and interesting gameplay. You will need a few tries to get used to the rules though. Especially with Sollium Infernum. That is not your trypical strategy game at all. It's all about political maneuvering in hell
Great game or Dominions 3. Extremely complex rule system. Combat leaves something to be desired, but it's decent enough.
That does it for my cheer leading for indies. I can't really say anymore other than you are missing out, but everyone is different. Like I can still play the old goldbox games or new modules made for FRUA (Forgotten Realms: Unlimited Adventures) and have a blast playing them. Not everyone can though and that's fine. Everyone is different after all
I think you keep missing the point about wanting mid-high level production values. I'm not denying there is the occasional indie trying genuinely new things, but if it's not followed by relatively modern standards - it breaks my immersion.
I did start out by saying I'm a demanding gamer
Dwarf Fortress is definitely a very creative indie, but one that I can't play because of the graphics. I can no longer get excited by ASCII characters or primitive tilesets - and I need something to aid my immersion. It doesn't take THAT much - but generally more than most indies can muster.
Eschalon is about the minimum I can't tolerate these days, and it's quite pretty for an indie. Unfortunately, the game itself is primitive and plays like something from 20 years ago. Not a bad thing, but unfortunately not enough to get me excited. I did spend most of my youth playing this kind of CRPG - so I've sort of been there, done that.
KotC is a really strong title, based on the demo - but unfortunately it was very low on character options and classes. It also seemed quite limited in scope. It's basically a combat engine with only the basic classes of D&D - and I didn't see much of an actual wholesome game. I mean to check back with it when they've added more stuff.
About Devil's Whiskey. I think Bard's Tale was a great game in the mid-late 80s. Today? Too primitive. I don't support that kind of thing just because it's nostalgic.
Omega Syndrome? Haven't tried it. Might check it out.
Dominions 3 is a very good example. Pretty fantastic game, actually. But again, it looks REALLY REALLY bad. I'm no art wizard, but I could make most of the needed visuals for that game in a way that looks A LOT better. It's like they're not even trying.
That's what I meant by not replacing AAA innovation.
You talk about choice, as if I could somehow choose what I like and what I don't like. Unfortunately, I don't work like that. If I did, I would never lament anything, because I'd just choose to accept what's there as enough. Then we wouldn't even need indies, because I could just choose to enjoy AAA mainstream games.
So could you, by the way - so your standards are way too high
You see my point, surely?
I'm really glad that indies can fill that empty space I'm sensing in the industry, for so many. But let's not try and make objective statements about what standards are too high or too low. That's like saying people are too much like they are. Most likely true, but can't really be helped
But it's KEY to understand that I'm not talking against indies in general. It's fantastic when innovation happens, and when people are taking chances - and promoting the art. I just don't see them as the savior of gaming or anything like that. I think many start out with the idea of doing great things, but most people end up exactly like AAA companies - as in being comfortable doing the exact same thing over and over. So many are just continuously updating the same game incrementally - which is hardly what we all really want.
Anyway, as you say, I think we've reached the end of this in terms of fruitful debate. Obviously, I demand a lot more than you do - but I can't help it.
In any case, I wish you a great time with indies in the future
