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Default Confession time: Why Pibbur likes Wow. Loooong rant.

November 7th, 2010, 19:48
//I originally put this on the image site thread, where my filthy taste regarding mmo's were first revealed. It was a bit off topic there. And I didn't want to hijack the other Wow thread, as this is kind of longish. So Pladio - in the image site thread you now responds to nothing.

Wow. This is why

First: I play a lot of different games, ranging from heavy RP games like Vampire Bloodlines to games like Doom3 where there is no RP at all. By the intermediate value theorem, in that range there are surprise, surprise games where the RP elements are weak. And there's no "Thou shalt only play RP games with strong RP elements", at least i don't subscribe to that rule.

Wow is no strong RP game. While you have levelling and you can to some degree determine how your character develops, what you do in the game doesn't matter much. So no C&C. This is laregly due to the persistent-world-with-a-lot-of-players-who play-now-and-then, and it affects all MMO's I've played (LOTRO and AoC in addition to Wow). If you kill Fozzle, he has to be around for the next guy who wants him. And seing him 2-3 minutes after you thrashed him kind of destroys the world-saviour feeling. One way of solving this is through instances, which is prominent in all three games, so you have to actively seek Foozle again. There are a lot of instances in Wow, but in LOTRO they seem to be more part of the story, and a lot of them are playable as solo ventures. So what you do seems to matter a bit more, one of the reasons I think LOTRO is a better mmoRPG.

There may be other MMOs which are better in this respect, but I haven't played them.

So, a weak RP game. But then, I'm not looking for more when I play Wow. If I want heavy RP, I play Bloodlines, or PS:T. Or something like that. And, while a weak RP game in itself, it is a good vehicle for RP. Between players, and no, I'm not talking about the RP=Cybersex (sometimes) taking place among the jumping jacks in Goldshire. I've had several very nice RP exchanges within my guild, and randomly with players I've met. More on that later.

How I play it: Almost entirely in solo mode, except for verbal exchanges with other players, and the occasional cooperation to take down one particularly difficult enemy.. sorry .. "mob". I never take part in PvP. And I don't do raids (I did, but not at the moment: I really can't dedicate myself to > 3 hours dedicated play).

I play only on RP serveres. Not that there's that much RP going on there, but you don't see as many characters named "Ifartalot" and there are more players staying in character. Can't compete with LOTRO in this aspect, though.

Now to what I like:

1. It's a huge world, with a lot of different areas, from deserts to swamp lands. There are a few areas in there I really like just to be in due to the scenery and the mood. My favourites are the depressive ones like Duskwood, Desolace and the Plaugelands. And there are several areas pr level range, so you don't have to play the same areas every time. Which you have to do to some degree in LOTRO and especially AoC. I suppose this has something to do with the economic strength of the game - Blizzard can afford it, the others can't. Currently I'm playing a night elf druid, in regions I haven't visited for quite a long time, which makes the experience not new, but "newer".

2. I like levelling. Being able to handle enemies I could only flee from last month is in itself rewarding to me. And there's no enemy levelling in Wow.

3. 10 different classes. some of them very different, which allows for different approaches to fighting and other problem solving. I like warlocks, druids and hunters.

4. 10 different races. Whatever you choose here, doesn't matter much apart from limiting the classes available. But they allow for (together with the player to player exhcanges) - next slide, please:

5. A rich environment for creating characters with personalities and background stories.

I have one gnome warrior, Taci, who a) is very enthusiastic b) prefers big 2-handed weapons (watching her swinging her axe, which lifts her off the ground is funny) c) is very noisy d) a bit clumsy (waves her axe a bit uncontrolledly in guild hall) e) proud of Gnome technology - rides her mechanostrider into guild hall (without thinking about the noise and exhaust gasses from said mount). And I act uppon those traits when I play her. For instance, whenever other gnomes enter "guild hall", she salutes them by yelling "GNOOOOOOOOME", and - most important - this has become part of guild lore and guild members act upon it in character, some gets annoyed, others find it charming.

I have other characters with other personalities: A somewhat aloof elvish druid (named "Pibbur"), an undead warlock who still remembers his humanity, but is loyal to the forsaken cause. And a dwarven paladin who thinks the Auction house is first of all a place where the rich exploit the poor, and who therefore refuses to buy and sell things there. He only uses things he can make on his own, finds on fallen enemies or can be bought from ordinary vendors. Playing him is a bit more difficult than the others, as he well always be underequipped.

I've created a lot of other characters. Most of them didn't survive because I couldn't "relate" to them, but the ones I've mentioned above remain.

To achieve this a few things is important:
- good in-character names. I spend some time fining names. Lately I've started using names derived from old germanic names. The name I'm most satisfied with is "Agilamundo", currently applied to a troll rogue, which, since she doesn't belong to my set for favourite characters may very well disappear and be replaced by something completely different (while keeping the name).

- no powergaming. Taci specializes in hardware and she goes for big two-handed axes. I don't care, partly don't even know, if she'd be more powerful if I specialised in other traits or used other weapons. She selects the traits and the weapons she wants. In other words: I care more for what-would-my-character-do than what-is-the-best-build. This is btw one reason why I don't do raids. When raiding you usually have to think more about the traits and equipment which optimize the raiding party. I don't want to do that.

BTW, she's female, I'm male. I play both genders. No particular reason: Taci (and my other gnomes) are female, because all the male gnome models are UGLY!!!

6. LOTS of easter eggs:
- the lumberjack named "Terry Palin"
- the child Ha'lei who see dead draenei
- thumpers used to bring forth bigg worms in the Bone wastes
- the NPC yelling "you can't have any pudding if you don't eat your fish".
- and a huge lot of others. There are web sites dedicated to easter eggs in Wow.

I think the developers must have had fun making it.

7. World events, especially the ones before release of add ons. "Cataclysm" which will change the world dramatically, is due to arrive 7th of december. But already we see signs that something is going to happen: earth shakes, elementals appearing everywhere, and a lot of doomsayers and worried people in the cities. In Stormwind all the leaders of the Alliance are gathered to discuss the situation. And it will only get worse as we approach release date. This is something Blizzard is very good at. Of course they do it to attract interest, to get more people to buy the addon. But at the same time, I find it quite exciting.

I haven't elaborated upon the bad things, things I don't appreach, such as
- repetitiveness of quests: lots of fed-ex and "kill n mobes for me, please." (In some ways I belong to those who think killing 20 furbolgs is twice as funny as killing 10.)
- illogical quests. "Get me 10 feathers from birds". Birds usually have feathers. If you kill a bird, you ought to be able to pick up a feather or two from the body. But only 1 in 10 have them. In stead you get 2 silver coins, and maybe a hat.
. other things (thus making the list complete)

I haven't elaborated upon these things as they're quite common in games, and they don't distract me from enjoying the game.

All in all I find Wow to be a lighthearted, funny game, with lots of opportunities for being someone else. And sometimes that is want I want.

Oh, I don't play Wow all the time. Right now I spend time with it because of the upcoming addon. Usually it can take weeks/months between periods of wow play. As I said initially: I play a lot of different games.

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November 7th, 2010, 21:20
I think I've got to agree with you, and I think WoW is the top P2P MMORPG for a reason.

You're bang on the money about everything I loved, though. I liked the characters, such as my female Tauren warrior whose only desire was to protect her homelands or my female Human warlock who was innocent (Well, as innocent as a warlock can be), naive, and never understood why they were so detested or feared. I felt that playing about with character types within the rules of the lore was quite fun, too.

It's quite evident now that the cracks are starting to show in various areas in the game; Poorly itemised gear even at the high levels, quest chains now incomplete, areas left unfinished, retcons and story-tweaks invalidating certain quests - And I think it's proof of Blizzard's dedication to both their universe and their game that they're not just plastering over the cracks, they're really taking the bull by the horns. I do wish they'd update the classic race models, however, because they're really starting to look out of date amongst everything else, especially the upcoming Goblins and Worgen.

I'll agree with you that it's not the greatest MMO, but I don't think there is a "greatest" one. LotRO, for me, was too complex on the surface and suffered from a huge number of stats - even in the early portions of the game. The combat was good but overall the game never hooked me. Some games do things better than others, and they're better suited for different people.

Aside:
I'll always say, however, that if you're easily addicted to things then an MMO is the single worst thing you can play, but even for your normal player it's important to maintain a degree of self-control. All these "It sucks up your life" naysayers are all singing the same tune, but they're attacking a game for it when it's the fault of the players. Why don't they go after Civilization and the One-More-Turn syndrome it causes? Why don't they go after Solitaire and the One-More-Game problem? WoW is no worse for it except that you pay monthly for it.

Aside aside:
Sorry if I wasn't meant to rattle off an essay
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November 7th, 2010, 21:24
After my long rant I really can't complain if people reply by more than two sentences, can I?

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November 7th, 2010, 23:41
My son played WOW to death. I've now converted him to DDO and he's VERY impressed with how much better it is. It's from the same company that gave you LoTRO. Oh, did I mention it's also FREE!!
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November 8th, 2010, 00:03
you guys acctually made me try DDO…. but which server are you playing on?
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November 8th, 2010, 02:25
Check out the Team Corwin Thread to see which among us are there. We play on Kyber. The game starts around 6pm CMT. Lately many of us have logged in earlier but that is the average time. Our group level is 14 atm which does make lower levels joining us to play a problem at the Friday Night session. However many of us have lower level characters and can hook up at other times. The guild name is RPGWatch…and any of us can invite you to join.

Once in the guild you can see who is online when you are. Feel free to ask for help. It can be easy to miss when someone logs on if your are in a battle atm. Say hi and maybe some of us can swap out to our other characters and join up with you. I have missed seeing members online several times, and only when they log out do I realize. So say hi in guild chat and yell if need anything.

On Friday we chat using skype…makes the game play fun…hehe
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November 8th, 2010, 13:15
WoW as a core design was a tremendous achievement in 2004.

However, I despise the way it has "devolved" into an overly casual hamster wheel, with absolutely no perspective for the observant player.

Then again, I never cared for the genre itself - and I'm still shocked that I got caught in it. Mostly due to playing it with my GF (at the time) as the social aspect of that appealed to me greatly.

But, the problem as it is now - is that you simply have no reason to exist in the game, except to grind for items endlessly - and you never get to feel the advantage of them, because you're always on the hunt for upgrades.

There's no sense of a persistent world, and your character has absolutely no way to stand out and be someone special. You're just another mouse on the wheel, no matter what you tell yourself.

Blizzard made everything happen in instances, and now you don't even have to go to the actual instances to get in. You queue up with strangers and go through the motions. The exact opposite of what I would prefer from such an experience.

The lore is a joke, and Blizzard obviously doesn't give a shit about telling a meaningful story. It's just a bunch of pop-cultural references with a portion of clichés thrown into the mix. Nothing new from them, but it gets ever more obvious.

Oh, I get that it can be a great game if you play it a certain way. If you're not really into the end-game or into "perspective" - it can be great fun. My problem is that I need to feel that I have a goal (that I consider meaningful) - and I need to understand WHY I'm doing all these quests or all this killing. If it turns out that I'm actually grinding to get to grind some more, then it falls apart.

Originally, my "goal" became to experience the content - but I eventually grew tired of seeing variations on a theme. They're good at this, being Bliz, but the design process just got way too obvious.

Then I became obsessed with DPS - and I became (AFAIK) the #1 DPS Rogue Horde side on my server - even without the best gear. But spending 4+ hours each day reading forums and studying mechanics, separate from actually playing the game and committing to raids eventually burned me out.

Gear used to matter and it used to last once you got your hands on it. But after it became obvious that this was just another endless grind with absolutely no end in sight, I lost interest in the gear hunt as well.

They never implemented the features that I expected them to. Housing never came, crafting got worse, and most of all - they abandoned open word PvP entirely - which is almost a crime, considering how strong their combat/network system is.

Of all the modern MMOs, I like LOTRO the most. Not because it's a better GAME, but because it feels more like a place where you actually exist and where you can actually be someone special (not special as in BETTER, but as in unique). The combat system is dreary and there's a bit too much WoW about some of the features - but it seems to respect the lore and the player a lot more. I feel comfortable in that world.

DDO has great aspects, but there's simply not enough variation in the dungeons. The vast majority of them are extremely samey and predictable. I just can't maintain interest that way.
Last edited by DArtagnan; November 8th, 2010 at 13:26.

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November 8th, 2010, 13:43
Oh, I get that it can be a great game if you play it a certain way.
Like the way I play it? Obviously we don't/didn't play it the same way. My goal is still being there, acting out my characters, and explore (even if I've been alsmost everywhere now), taking in the mood of the areas.

Mostly you address issues that doesn't matter to me or affect me. Since I don't do pvp, I'm perfectly happy with not being exposed to it. And I don't hunt for the ultimate gear (sicne that as I understand is only available in dungeons or in the arena).

Actually, I've still (after playing a couple of years) not reached level 80 with any character (I have one at level 78), so I've no experience with end-game.

Blizzard made everything happen in instances, and now you don't even have to go to the actual instances to get in. You queue up with strangers and go through the motions. The exact opposite of what I would prefer from such an experience.
That would be arena fighting (which I don't do), yes? For other instances it's not so - I just went to Blackfthom Deeps (on my own, could as well have brougth a team of choice with me).

BTW, I like the lore of the game, don't think it's that bad.

Of all the modern MMOs, I like LOTRO the most. Not because it's a better GAME, but because it feels more like a place where you actually exist and where you can actually be someone special (not special as in BETTER, but as in unique). The combat system is dreary and there's a bit too much WoW about some of the features - but it seems to respect the lore and the player a lot more.
One of the things I like in LOTRO, is that you, while not being in the Fellowship, still has a small part to play, supporting the great quest. It also a more serious game - there's no room for a character like Taci, my gnome warrior. So I switch between those games (even Aoc, occasionally) and single player games, depending on what I want at the moment,

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November 8th, 2010, 13:54
Originally Posted by pibbur View Post
Like the way I play it? Obviously we don't/didn't play it the same way. My goal is still being there, acting out my characters, and explore (even if I've been alsmost everywhere now), taking in the mood of the areas.
Like the people who enjoy it play it, I guess.

I'm a very focused player and EXTREMELY goal-oriented. I analyse why I play something every few minutes, so you can imagine my issues.

I enjoyed the game a lot for similar reasons to yours - the first 6-12 months, so I've gotten a lot out of the game. Sadly, it didn't lead me anywhere good - so I consider most of my time spent a huge waste.

The primary reason I enjoyed it so much, was that I got to experience it fresh with my GF - so it felt like a social thing. I've never been able to enjoy an experience like that, with strangers on the net. Maybe it's because I have a weakness - but I really need to have people physically present, to make a worthwhile connection.

It's also the first MMO that I got serious with, because as I said - I consider the entire genre a mistake. A paradox, really. Why? Because the better they are at making them to suit my tastes, the more it will consume my time and the less I will spend on other newer things. If you think through it, to the end, the perfect MMO would be the perfect alternate life - and the only problem with that, is that it would be an illusion.

Mostly you address issues that doesn't matter to me or affect me. Since I don't do pvp, I'm perfectly happy with not being exposed to it. And I don't hunt for the ultimate gear (sicne that as I understand is only available in dungeons or in the arena).
That mindset would definitely help

Actually, I've still (after playing a couple of years) not reached level 80 with any character (I have one at level 78), so I've no experience with end-game.
I typically spend some time figuring out what kind of character I enjoy the most, and then focus entirely on that character. That's because I don't really enjoy going through quests more than once - and I'm very specific about what I like.

That would be arena fighting (which I don't do), yes? For other instances it's not so - I just went to Blackfthom Deeps (on my own, could as well have brougth a team of choice with me).
Arenas, Battlegrounds, Dungeons, Raids, and so on. Everything that "matters" to me, happens separately from the actual world. Tragic, really, because I ADORE the world design.

BTW, I like the lore of the game, don't think it's that bad.
To each his own

I consider it transparent and obviously uncared for.
Last edited by DArtagnan; November 8th, 2010 at 14:06.

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November 8th, 2010, 14:03
Originally Posted by DArtagnan View Post
Arenas, Battlegrounds, Dungeons, Raids, and so on. Everything that "matters" to me, happens separately from the actual world.
They're instances yes, but you only queue up for Arenas and Battlegrounds. For dungeons and raids you still make your own party. And go there.

But I agree that they're somewhat apart from the main world. In Lotro the instances feel more a part of the story and the environment.

To each his own. I consider it transparent and obviously uncared for.
I guess it's been developed now and then, as the need for more enemies, raids and such arose. So it's a bit like a patchwork. Unlike LOTRO and AoC where you had a well developed story from the beginning. Still I like it.

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November 8th, 2010, 14:11
Originally Posted by pibbur View Post
They're instances yes, but you only queue up for Arenas and Battlegrounds. For dungeons and raids you still make your own party. And go there.

But I agree that they're somewhat apart from the main world. In Lotro the instances feel more a part of the story and the environment.
Yeah, I was talking specifically about them being separate from the world - and not so much the queue thing. The queue thing is just the next step in the non-persistent feel.

Oh, and you DO queue up for the dungeons. You don't have to, but people do because it's possible.

I guess it's been developed now and then, as the need for more enemies, raids and such arose. So it's a bit like a patchwork. Unlike LOTRO and AoC where you had a well developed story from the beginning. Still I like it.
The issue is that I need to be able to take a story seriously, to enjoy it. Either that, or I need to know that it's all a big joke.

Blizzard mixes it up, and as such they leave me with something I know was never meant as a serious story, and it wasn't meant as a big joke. So, it's something I simply can't invest anything in.

AoC/LotRO present a much more coherent vision, and I find it much easier to enjoy them for their stories.

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November 11th, 2010, 22:58
Originally Posted by GothicGothicness View Post
you guys acctually made me try DDO…. but which server are you playing on?
But, and this was the whole purpose of the thread, obviously: Have you forgiven me for playing Wow?

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November 11th, 2010, 23:53
Hey we forgive young children when they learn from their mistakes, what's the difference!!
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November 12th, 2010, 00:41
But I haven't stopped playing Wow…..

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November 12th, 2010, 05:01
Then of course we will not forgive you!
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November 12th, 2010, 09:54
But, and this was the whole purpose of the thread, obviously: Have you forgiven me for playing Wow?
O, I am sorry Pibbur… but I can't bring myself to read so much text about WoW.
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November 12th, 2010, 10:24
Don't stop playing WoW until you find your real life more exciting

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November 12th, 2010, 16:08
Originally Posted by DArtagnan View Post
Don't stop playing WoW until you find your real life more exciting
Thanks, my Danish friend. I needed that!

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November 12th, 2010, 17:05
I thought all the Scandinavians hated each other's guts ?
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November 12th, 2010, 17:10
I'll tell you a really big secret Pladio… we love to pretend that we hate each other… but in truth it is only the danish we hate.
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