Another one may bit the dust. Or to buy or not to buy

Originally Posted by pibbur
Ok. I would assume that "what they nshould or shouldn't" would be a consequence of that.

I could never judge others for being who they are - as I'm not them. I'm just trying to make it plain what I think, and the best I can hope for is to bring new information to the table, that people might react to.

If it turns out that people really don't have a problem with gaming becoming what it may or not become - then I have no business judging them. I'll just be sad about it.

Thing is, though, that I suspect many gamers don't really think too much about the long-term consequences of what they're actively supporting. At least, I hope that's why they're actively supporting it.

No, not because they're stupid - but because they have other things on their minds.

It's probably more about what I spend time and mind on. I do react to/make immediate opinions about a lot of things. But in many cases I decide to override my immediate reactions and not paying attention to them.

Most of my reactions are too strong for me to ignore them, or maybe I'm just too weak.

Originally Posted by GothicGothicness
Assuming it is what you linked to

Stunning indeed… LOL. what a joke… here is the HTC Desire HD:s screen:

Screen 4,3 "
Resolution 480 pixel x 800 pixel

Compared to this : http://worldwide.blackberry.com/blac…ifications.jsp

It's a big advance in screen size…

Also, the BB still has its keyboard that isn't touchscreen. A lot of people don't like typing on touch screens.

Originally Posted by Pladio
…
2. You are punished for saying the name of the unnameable.

Thankfully, I didn't mention Wow, the unnameable game. There are apps for that too.

…5. I wouldn't recommend reading a whole book on the iPhone, even with 20 year old eyes, but I wouldn't on anything smaller than a 13 inch screen if it has to be on a screen rather than a real book.

Good point. I'll have to take a closer look on this.

…There's even an app that read business cards and inputs all the info immediately into your contacts

That settles it. Smartphone it is!

Originally Posted by pibbur
Thankfully, I didn't mention Wow, the unnameable game. There are apps for that too.

Good point. I'll have to take a closer look on this.

That settles it. Smartphone it is!

Apparently 1,3 and 4 weren't important enough to comment upon and as such they are striking and not coming back until commented upon. They demand a raise as well! They had to hear about not only the unnameable sport, but also the unnameable game. So they're asking for future guarantees to not name either of them as well as one more holiday per year, which would be on the 25th of February of every year hereafter.



This is what happens when you're jetlagged and are still online when you should have showered hours ago and gone to bed by now …

Originally Posted by DArtagnan
I'm talking about gameplay and game design - not production values.

So the fantastic platform gave you a whole hour of enjoyment? That's incredible!

Not the platform, just that game. And just one hour, because I stopped playing then, like I do with so many (great) console/PC games.

Chaos Rings?

Japanese-style RPG by Square Enix, exclusive to iOS. It's pretty good, really. Like a mini JRPG. Design and gameplay is really very similar to console JRPGs. But then again, you don't like JRPGs. So all iOS games are still crap.

You don't understand the long-term implication of these games being so profitable, along with facebook games and so on?

I really don't think the big money is in mobile games. I also think that the chance of a big hit is probably smaller for a big dev than for the big platforms where they already have a name. It's probably less of a financial risk, but there's a reason they don't invest millions in mobile game development (apart from the cheap dev cost).

I don't think mobile games are eating away from other platforms. I think it's just another market. Most iOS game devs are old and jaded Mac devs, anyway.

Originally Posted by DArtagnan
It's the trend and the direction I'm worried about - not the market conditions as they are at this very moment.

It's about the long-term implication of this being so profitable.

I don't have much to add to this discussion, but I must say I'm in complete agreement.

A lot of what we're seeing now in the mobile market remains in it's infancy and will undoubtedly grow. Still, I keep hoping people will get bored and demand thought provoking, engaging, immersive, ect gameplay/design. Yet the millions of farmville/fishville/wahtever fans don't inspire much confidence.

Originally Posted by MasterKromm
I don't have much to add to this discussion, but I must say I'm in complete agreement.

A lot of what we're seeing now in the mobile market remains in it's infancy and will undoubtedly grow. Still, I keep hoping people will get bored and demand thought provoking, engaging, immersive, ect gameplay/design. Yet the millions of farmville/fishville/wahtever fans don't inspire much confidence.

You better duck before Thaurin throws another cat at us!

That's cool, I would welcome a kitten!

Originally Posted by MasterKromm
A lot of what we're seeing now in the mobile market remains in it's infancy and will undoubtedly grow. Still, I keep hoping people will get bored and demand thought provoking, engaging, immersive, ect gameplay/design. Yet the millions of farmville/fishville/wahtever fans don't inspire much confidence.

And yet, not every game needs to be thought provoking or immersive. Are you saying that the production of casual games, the mere existence of match-three puzzle games, is negatively affecting the production of thought-provoking games? What happened? Why don't we play Arkanoid or Mario anymore? They worked perfectly fine for us then, but we have somehow outgrown them because now we have deep, complex cRPGs? Boo, hiss!

Originally Posted by Thaurin
And yet, not every game needs to be thought provoking or immersive. Are you saying that the production of casual games, the mere existence of match-three puzzle games, is negatively affecting the production of thought-provoking games? What happened? Why don't we play Arkanoid or Mario anymore? They worked perfectly fine for us then, but we have somehow outgrown them because now we have deep, complex cRPGs? Boo, hiss!

Thaurin… my sweet.

This isn't about the EXISTENCE of casual games.

It's about a growing trend - and a very powerful one at that.

No one is saying every game needs to be one thing or the other, but we're saying that once this market gets to be big enough - a lot of developers will move there.

Many of those developers will then NOT develop the deep/interesting games they might have on the PC - because it doesn't pay the same, and it requires a lot more investment.

Note, that the developers themselves are not always at the heart of the matter. As we all know, developers like to develop - and if they have financial support, that's made all the easier.

Even without much financial support, developers can gain a foothold in the mobile/facebook market, because it doesn't take much money to make something that sells there. Look at the big titles like Farmville and what not.

That's the kind of game we're going to see a lot more of, if this trend continues.

There's no escaping that when developers spend time doing one thing, they don't spend it doing something else. It's inevitable - and you have no way out of that logical fact.

How bad it is, and how much the "deep/challenging" genre will suffer - is something that we will have to wait to see. I fear it will suffer significantly.

If you look at the kind of people behind facebook games these days, you'll find absolutely top guys from a lot of the very best ex-companies, like Looking Glass or Origin.

THAT is f**king sad if you ask me, but such is the world when the almighty dollar is the holder of power.

Actually most mobile games has a much higher focus on gameplay than almost any PC game… so I don't get what your problem is DArty. It is certainly a step in the right direction to have gameplay focus instead of graphics focus.

I know it might not be able to give the experience you want… but at least you could agree gameplay focus is better than graphics focus right?

Originally Posted by GothicGothicness
Actually most mobile games has a much higher focus on gameplay than almost any PC game… so I don't get what your problem is DArty. It is certainly a step in the right direction to have gameplay focus instead of graphics focus.

I know it might not be able to give the experience you want… but at least you could agree gameplay focus is better than graphics focus right?

They focus on gameplay because there's nothing else to focus on.

But if you look at the modern devices, graphics are indeed becoming the focus - because visuals are starting to look like what we're used to on stronger platforms.

But really, the focus is not on gameplay or graphics.

The focus is on money, and that's my problem.

What I want, is for the artist to focus on art - and that's rare today, and will be rarer in the future if this trend continues.

If they just wanted money they could make iFart, or iMirror, or iRich or whatever else those stupid iPhone users buy* ( GhanBuriGhan excluded as he is obviously in the more intelligent spectrum of the iFån users )

* Disclaimer don't take this too serious……..

Originally Posted by GothicGothicness
If they just wanted money they could make iFart, or iMirror, or iRich or whatever else those stupid iPhone users buy* ( GhanBuriGhan excluded as he is obviously in the more intelligent spectrum of the iFån users )

* Disclaimer don't take this to serious……..

That's what's happening as we speak, my dear.

Originally Posted by DArtagnan
No one is saying every game needs to be one thing or the other, but we're saying that once this market gets to be big enough - a lot of developers will move there.

Yeah, I just don't see that happening long-term. Developers will develop want they want to develop. What we've seen is some amazing stuff on mobile devices, not because the devs have gone for the money, but because they genuinely thought the platform was awesome and wanted to do something for it. There are exceptions, of course, but the market has a way of filtering them out. True love is evident and I do think that the mobile gamer audience is a lot more critical than the average console gamer.

You might think Angry Birds (or now Tiny Wings) are silly "cute" games, but they were obviously made with love, hooking millions of people. Similarly, PC developers will keep supporting PC games—it's the investors you need to worry about. And I don't think they are ready to abandon PC/console games significantly, because bigger investment means bigger return.

Oh, whatever. My point in all this was that I enjoy games on PC/Xbox360/PS3/iPhone/iPad and I like it that way. What the market does is its problem.

Originally Posted by Thaurin
Yeah, I just don't see that happening long-term. Developers will develop want they want to develop. What we've seen is some amazing stuff on mobile devices, not because the devs have gone for the money, but because they genuinely thought the platform was awesome and wanted to do something for it. There are exceptions, of course, but the market has a way of filtering them out. True love is evident and I do think that the mobile gamer audience is a lot more critical than the average console gamer.

You might think Angry Birds (or now Tiny Wings) are silly "cute" games, but they were obviously made with love, hooking millions of people. Similarly, PC developers will keep supporting PC games—it's the investors you need to worry about. And I don't think they are ready to abandon PC/console games significantly, because bigger investment means bigger return.

Oh, whatever. My point in all this was that I enjoy games on PC/Xbox360/PS3/iPhone/iPad and I like it that way. What the market does is its problem.

Sounds to me like it's you I need to worry about

In any case, it's nice that you think they're doing it out of love and passion - and if you love these games as much as I love a strong PC game, then there's really nothing wrong with it.

Just means you'll get more and I get less, but that's ok. I only have so much time anyway

That said, I suspect you've forgotten the best gaming experiences of your life - and where they came from - but maybe I'm wrong

Originally Posted by DArtagnan
T…

What I want, is for the artist to focus on art - and that's rare today, and will be rarer in the future if this trend continues.

Given that I in general do not consider computer games art at all, never have been, I would say to focus on art, an artist would seek other arenas completely.

Games are for entertaionment, nothing more, nothing less. With a few very rare exceptions, none of which I remember here and now.

Originally Posted by pibbur
Given that I in general do not consider computer games art at all, never have been, I would say to focus on art, an artist would seek other arenas completely.

To me, pure art is pure subjective expression - though it can be a shared vision expressed by more people. Typically, though, there will be a single person with one vision that others need to agree with and understand fully, if it's to be pure.

We can agree that commercial games can never be entirely pure, just like commercial anything can never be entirely pure. But I've seen games that are definitely close enough, and something like Planescape is a good example.

But whatever word you use, I want that to be the focus.

Not that it will be, but I want that anyway.

To put it another way, I want the dream as untarnished as it can be. When one person, or a tight team, has a dream - I want them to follow that dream, and get as close as they can possibly get.

So, unless the dream is to be rich in itself - putting money first can never be the same as reaching the dream. So what we get is something else.

I'm not going to say that the thing that is not the dream is better or worse, but just that I simply don't want that.

I want people to show me their dreams - not what they think they can profit from.

People who want to get rich with what they do bore the hell out of me, and I'd just as soon scratch my ass than see their work.

Originally Posted by Thaurin
And yet, not every game needs to be thought provoking or immersive. Are you saying that the production of casual games, the mere existence of match-three puzzle games, is negatively affecting the production of thought-provoking games? What happened? Why don't we play Arkanoid or Mario anymore? They worked perfectly fine for us then, but we have somehow outgrown them because now we have deep, complex cRPGs? Boo, hiss!

Honestly, I just see the drift of things… Increasingly powerful phones capable of more and more advanced functionality(HW is advancing/evolving at a mystifying rate. Intel is already building a 14nm fab set for completion in 2013), an ever increasing exploitable market(in time nearly everyone from india to china will have access to a smart phone) and a format that is slowly drifting towards standardization in no small part due to the rise of android(Android, Symbian, Apple, RIM – first two accounting for nearly 2/3).

The chase for profit is like water, it seeks the path of least resistance… And eventually the mobile market will be a market like none other(sheer size, affordability and ease of use) and to ignore it is nearly impossible.

As a gaming platform I don't like mobile phones. I would rather read a book, check the news or browse various stock + commodity markets… Also, I think that the mobile phone market is more in tune with casual gamers(not knocking either) it's just a part of it's nature(due to sheer convenience - EG the ability to kill time while walking/commuting). So yes, as the mobile market becomes more and more attractive to developers(I don't see how anyone can deny the raw potential of said market) that will come at the expense of the PC. I think the potential even extends to indies, who can now practically compete on an even keel. Even more poignant, the mobile market will not only see a rise of casual games, but it will be where the game innovation heads as well. It just isn't cost effective to gamble on the PC or console platforms.

I'm not mad or anything, so please, go easy on the cat chucking!

-EDIT-

Games are for entertaionment, nothing more, nothing less. With a few very rare exceptions, none of which I remember here and now.

No offense, but that is a boring and narrow-minded view.

Kind of like saying buildings are only structure that provide shelter… Frank Lloyd Wright built homes devoid of artistry, they were for living in nothing more, nothing less. I think some might disagree with such a statement.

A singular or dominant function does not, in and of itself, preclude artistic value or characteristics. I find myself more enthralled with artistic qualities when they are not seen in their traditional(ly perceived) format(s). Ultimately artistic value can be reduced to cultural interpretations -> perception. Neither of which are universal, thus it is my opinion that art is undefinable and seeking to do so would limit it's potential.

Originally Posted by DArtagnan
That said, I suspect you've forgotten the best gaming experiences of your life - and where they came from - but maybe I'm wrong

Yes, 11th Hour on the PC… and now I can play its prequel The 7th Guest on iPad!

Don't get me wrong, PC/console is still more immersive/compelling. But it's nice to sometimes play a game on iPhone, too. I just don't think that just because PC/console is more compelling (mostly because of the bigger screen), it should be the only platforms to receive cool games.