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Default A little clarification regarding negativity towards the industry

May 9th, 2011, 11:47
*WARNING*

This a long semi-rambling post - with a lot of subjective observations. I made this more for my own sake than for yours - to clarify my position. You will most likely be bored, if you bother reading it.

—-

Hey there.

In the past few months I've noted - on several occasions - that a lot of people feel that the Watch, and perhaps the Internet in general, has become very negative towards the gaming industry and publishers/developers - or that some of us are more negative than usual.

I think that's true, actually.

I wanted to explain my position, in the hope that it might cast some light on why that is - and based on my point of view, how it may not be completely irrational or "hatred-based" lashing out.

You see, I do understand how this negativity can seem destructive - and how those of us with a problem might seem like whining children who bitch about everything - no matter how good it might seem to others.

Maybe you think that we enjoy bringing others down, and maybe you think we don't appreciate good games. I think some of those who prefer a positive outlook DO understand that it's not like that - but sometimes it can be hard to look past the destructive bashing and go into the reasons for it.

Well, anyway, here's my take on it:

You know the old saying: "A cynic is a romantic with a broken heart."?

Simplistic, yeah, and it's not the whole picture - but as starting point, it's pretty much what's happened to me - concerning the industry and the way it's changed.

A sob story? Well, not really. We're talking about games and I know that. No one is dying and lives aren't in danger. It's just entertainment and a way to pass the time.

However, since early childhood - I've had gaming as a passionate hobby - and I've been very dedicated to following games and their development.

From my point of view, it's not about entitlement at all. I have no reason to expect developers to cater to my interests - and I'm fully aware of the fact that the best way to generate profit, is to cater to the majority. That's just how it works.

Now, given that I understand that - why do I keep commenting and lamenting when developers are doing the obvious and releasing mainstream title after mainstream title?

It's because I truly believe, and this is where we probably differ - that MANY developers didn't actually get into the business to make money as the primary reason. It's my assumption that a lot of developers originally got into the industry to, you know, make cool games that challenged both themselves and the audience.

Furthermore, I honestly believe that there IS a market for games of that nature. Yes, I do believe that. However, CLEARLY, such a market segment is significantly smaller - and if you want to make games that sell millions of copies, that's not the market segment you want to target.

My problem with AAA developers, is that they seem to be under some kind of "spell" - telling them that developing mainstream games that sell millions of copies is actually the same as developing artistically sound and innovative games.

I think they're caught in a trap, because they need to have their jobs - and they need to support their families - so there's no way they can stand up and tell the people financing their development to "sod off - I want to make something better than this" - because they'd be fired then and there.

Obviously, a lot of developers are NOT caught in a trap. A lot of developers REALLY enjoy creating what I consider blueprint "products", as long as they get to be creative in some way. I know this.

But I also think that a lot of developers have no choice but to tell themselves they're making great things - or that it's impossible to make money without targeting the mainstream.

I think it's a sickness that is pretty much dominant in every industry, a sickness that tells you that bigger is always better. A sickness that follows success like blood flows from a wound.

I see this everywhere. Developers start out struggling, and they take chances and make fantastic games. Then they meet with success - and they start growing. Eventually, they reach a point where the creative force is no longer in charge - because the demand for bigger budgets keeps growing. This is where the business people enter the picture and start calling the shots. Pretty soon, the game development is not longer controlled by creative aspirations, but monetary aspirations.

Who can blame them? Money means security - and security is a basic need.

I don't blame them, and when I bitch - it's not about blaming them. I understand it, and I can't feel entitled to anything else. It's human nature.

So, why do I "bitch"?

Well, I don't call it bitching. I react - that's all.

I react against the lies and the deceit. I react when developers and marketing tell us that their games are better than ever before. I react when developers openly state that whatever compromise will mean a better game.

I react, because I want to make it clear that they ARE compromising and the result will - probably - mean more copies sold, but it will NOT result in the better game.

It's the false message I can't abide. You're NOT making better games. You're compromising to make more money. Nothing wrong with that, if that's what you want. But don't tell me you're making better games.

If publishers/developers would do me the courtesy of being frank when trying to sell their games, I wouldn't make a single comment - or at least not many. Just say it out loud - and I'll accept what you're doing, and why you're doing it - without further bitching.

All this is just my point of view, though. I fully realise that many of you here on the Watch - and seemingly all around the 'net - believe that many mainstream decisions are for the better. I see lots of people celebrating Facebook or smartphone games, and I see many people supporting indie developers when they go for casual gamers.

That's fine, and I would never - ever - tell you to do anything else. I never tell people what to think, and likewise - I don't EVER accept it when people are trying to tell me what to think.

So, you can imagine how I feel when I see hordes of gamers celebrating every single mainstream decision the marketing reveals - and how I know this will lead to even more decisions of such a nature. I hold my tongue in that way - meaning I don't say "you're wrong - you're stupidly naive", as would be the reverse of "you're just bitching and hopelessly jaded". No, I simple state my opinion about what has been said in public.

Now, about the PR, I know that the world is like that - and I know that marketing is bullshit. That's reality.

There are many ways to respond when you're aware of it, and since I happen to think the entire capitalistic mindset is utterly destructive - not only to entertainment/art - but to humanity as a whole - I can't just shrug it off. I have to speak against it.

It's not to "ruin your day" or to make the atmosphere bad in any way. I don't see myself as a negative person - even though I know others do. I see myself as an observer of humanity and the world. I happen to love games and especially their potential.

That's why I speak against current trends all the time - and I'm sorry if it ruins your day. That's not my intention.

Finally, no, not all mainstream decisions are bad for a game. Lots of upcoming games seem great, regardless of mainstream choices. However, it doesn't mean that the choices themselves are making the game any better. They could be plausible and realistic ways of making possible a great game that ALSO sells. That's different, and I have no problem with that in any way. I can still comment on what I think of the individual choices, though.

Phew… I told you it would be boring.

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May 9th, 2011, 11:54
WOW, that is one long rant! I think it is fairly simple actually…. just like the movie industry, the gaming industry has moved from enthusiast who strive to make the best possible product. To majority of big studios seeing it as a way to make money… now a days you can see 20 portal 2 commercial billboards on the highway in U.S……

Just like in the movie industry where the enthusiast can create a small budget film, with a lot of heart and smart and innovative story. But it will be rare to see any huge production company do that. The same is true for gaming, except that you magnify that by 10.

The only way to get a top of the line experience of extremely high quality these days is to read a book IMHO. It is often written by one person who just need to have a decent language as a tool, not a 100 person team.
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May 9th, 2011, 12:29
I agree with both of you. I worked in the energy distribution industry for 31 years in the UK seeing the public corporations being broken into smaller dynamic units through to being arms of multinationals. The level of honesty seems to be in direct proportion to the size of the company but like DArtagnan I understand it and I can accept it (just). I fear honesty is not seen by corporations as the best policy but that is only my opinion.

Perhaps we ought to also tell people what we like about games as well as what we don't.
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May 9th, 2011, 12:33
Originally Posted by SleepingDog View Post
I agree with both of you. I worked in the energy distribution industry for 31 years in the UK seeing the public corporations being broken into smaller dynamic units through to being arms of multinationals. The level of honesty seems to be in direct proportion to the size of the company but like DArtagnan I understand it and I can accept it (just). I fear honesty is not seen by corporations as the best policy but that is only my opinion.

Perhaps we ought to also tell people what we like about games as well as what we don't.
That's a fair point, and one that I don't follow quite enough.

My own personal attempt at "putting money where my mouth is" is to try and finish the game I'm developing.

It's slow going and sometimes seems like an insurmountable task - but I still believe I can do it, eventually.

That will be my way of making clear what I like, and I'm curious to see if anyone else agrees with me.

Talk is cheap, as they say - and I really doubt people would be interested in hearing me go on about game design. They'd just write me off as an armchair designer with no actual experience.

The only way to "reach people" in this way, is to actually create something - I fear.

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May 9th, 2011, 12:36
Originally Posted by GothicGothicness View Post
The only way to get a top of the line experience of extremely high quality these days is to read a book IMHO. It is often written by one person who just need to have a decent language as a tool, not a 100 person team.
Yeah, but books aren't interactive

Even so, I feel many books are written for commercial reasons - at least that's what seems to be the way many great writers evolve. They start off with quality stuff, and then they get complacent and work out a "method" to write books in a short time and maximise their profit.

The same is even becoming true for indie developers, it seems.

Again, I can't blame them - but I reserve the right to tell them how I feel about their change.

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May 9th, 2011, 13:04
That was a very nice declaration, I do understand you a bit better now. And I have to say, I could largely sign what you wrote there myself. However that doesn't quite explain why you tend to engage in such lengthy debates so frequently - makes it seem like your "target" is more your fellow forumites than the industry, as your manifesto would suggest. I have no real problem with that (as I can always just phase out of the discussion), except for when such debates degenerate into duels of two or a few people that tend to turn personal, and worse, drown out any other level of discussion in a thread. Thats maybe where a bit more restraint (by all of us - I really don't want to single you out here, currently there are others more obvious, and I know I have been guilty too in the past) would be helpful.

I am very curious how the upcoming indies (especially AoD and Frayed Knights, that are clearly created from a "love of the game", above anything else, will fare - both "artistically" and commercially. That should tell us a lot about if there really is a large enough "middle market" that can support smaller teams producing enthusiast CRPGs. That soldak and basilisk seem to be doing alright (in addition to the Grandseigneur of this Business, Spiderweb) is encouraging even if one may of course argue about the extent of deliberate "casualization" in either of them.
Last edited by GhanBuriGhan; May 9th, 2011 at 14:04.
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May 9th, 2011, 13:27
Originally Posted by GhanBuriGhan View Post
That was a very nice declaration, I do understand you a bit better now. And I have to say, I could largely sign what you wrote there myself. However that doesn't quite explain why you tend to engage in such lengthy debates so frequently - makes it seem like your "target" is more your fellow forumites than the industry, as your manifesto would suggest. I have no real problem with that (as I can always just phase out of the discussion), except for when such debates degenerate into duels of two or a few people that tend to turn personal, and worse, drown out any other level of discussion in a thread. Thats maybe where a bit more restraint (by all of us - I really don't want to single you out here, currently there are others more obvious, and I know I have been guilty too in the past) would be helpful.
(sorry, this is going to be lengthy)

I completely understand your position here.

I'm not saying I'm a perfect human being - and it's for sure that I'm as flawed as we all are.

But, if you follow the pattern - it's often a result of people reacting to one of my statements.

I tend to state my opinion very bluntly, and I have to admit it's often with the knowledge that my statement will provoke discussion. Not always, but often.

But I'm also often surprised that people feel so strongly about my opinion, because I never mean to offend. I'm not a "bad person" in that way. I'm just extremely direct by nature, and the sarcastic smile doesn't show through the screen. I tend to not target individuals, because I feel we're all flawed and we all have faults. I target "flaws" as I see them in human nature, but obviously that's just my opinion.

But I don't provoke people to make them feel bad, or to be nasty. I provoke people because I feel so strongly about all of this. I don't have much patience with being "pleasant" and "polite" - because I find that it clouds the issue.

So, naturally, if you're used to such ways - I'll seem like a complete asshole sometimes.

But it's something I've discovered about myself many years ago. I simply don't have what it takes to put my opinions forth in an easily digestible fashion. I want to make it instantly clear exactly how I feel, instead of going the long road of pleasant and accomodating presentation.

The reason I feel that's "ok", is that I never - ever - react negatively when people are being blunt in return. In fact, I prefer it - no matter how "bad" their opinions are. About the only thing I can't stand, is when people are not being honest or when their contempt is showing in all ways except through straight talk.

So, when these "duels" go on an on, it's not because I want them to. It's because my opinion is considered so extreme, that people feel the need to attack it - and then it's a compulsion for me to explain. I can't help but respond, when the "smart" thing to do would probably just be to let it lie.

But, given how much effort I put into being honest and open - it's almost physically painful NOT to try and explain myself.

This is stupid of me, and it's actually the reverse of what I should do. I should, of course, start off being polite and carefully explain the background of who I am, and how I feel. Then, eventually, people would probably feel that I was less unreasonable and be ready for my opinion.

I'm sorry that I can't do that. Not sorry because I think it's the right thing to do, but because I know it would work better. Unfortunately, I'm also stubborn - and I refuse to let the "natural emotional reaction" guide how I present my opinion.

So, I just put it out there - and people react like I personally offended them.

A flaw? Probably. I don't know. I wish for a world where people could be honest and blunt - without people taking such things personally. I would like us all to be individuals with strong opinions, without fearing what others might think of it.

Oh, and there are exceptions. I do make very bad calls, and speak too aggresively too soon. I don't always detect it, and I'm sorry for that.

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May 9th, 2011, 15:36
I totally get where you're coming from, although we would probably differ on our perspectives of capitalism, but that's another convo entirely. I think there are a lot of people like you, and I incidentally, that really really really love games, and just have to voice our opinions, not only when we think a game is bad, but when we think smoke is being blown up our ass.

But in reading through your posts, I can totally understand how people could view us as the "Armond White" of video game criticism. We're very contrarian, and we focus on the negative aspects of games, while being willfully blind to the positive aspects (and there are some in almost every game) or dismissive of them in light of our criticism.

Perhaps we do need to re-evaluate games and stop looking for so many ways to tear them down, but I would agree with you that I just can't stomach it when a developer or publisher tries to polish a turd and then market it as a diamond.
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May 9th, 2011, 15:41
Originally Posted by DArtagnan
But I'm also often surprised that people feel so strongly about my opinion, because I never mean to offend.
The only thing which I feel "offended" by is that you write so darned long posts… and I feel that I must read through it all in order to reply…. which I don't always have time to do… resulting in that I am out of the thread
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May 9th, 2011, 15:46
Originally Posted by GothicGothicness View Post
The only thing which I feel "offended" by is that you write so darned long posts… and I feel that I must read through it all in order to reply…. which I don't always have time to do… resulting in that I am out of the thread
Well then you MAKE time.

Seriously, where are your priorities?
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May 9th, 2011, 16:21
Originally Posted by GothicGothicness View Post
The only thing which I feel "offended" by is that you write so darned long posts… and I feel that I must read through it all in order to reply…. which I don't always have time to do… resulting in that I am out of the thread
I'm glad I haven't offended you, and somewhat surprised

Most people "online" who don't agree with me tend to think I'm an arrogant prick with no claim to knowledge about that which I speak - which is generally games/entertainment/IT or human nature.

In most other areas - I'm pretty ignorant.

But I realise I sound like a know-it-all most of the time, and I can't deny having a strong confidence in my overall perception of the world and the people in it.

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May 9th, 2011, 16:26
Originally Posted by Captain Buzzkill View Post
I totally get where you're coming from, although we would probably differ on our perspectives of capitalism, but that's another convo entirely. I think there are a lot of people like you, and I incidentally, that really really really love games, and just have to voice our opinions, not only when we think a game is bad, but when we think smoke is being blown up our ass.
Especially the bolded part

I - fully and truly - LOATHE deceit. Willful or otherwise.

But in reading through your posts, I can totally understand how people could view us as the "Armond White" of video game criticism. We're very contrarian, and we focus on the negative aspects of games, while being willfully blind to the positive aspects (and there are some in almost every game) or dismissive of them in light of our criticism.
True, true. Well, I wouldn't say I'm fully blind to the positive aspects - as a more careful study of my posts should reveal. I think very highly of certain aspects and certain upcoming games seem truly great at this stage.

But, I do pour a lot more energy into focusing on the problems, rather than what already works for me.

Perhaps we do need to re-evaluate games and stop looking for so many ways to tear them down, but I would agree with you that I just can't stomach it when a developer or publisher tries to polish a turd and then market it as a diamond.
It can never hurt to do that, and honestly - it's something I'm trying to do on a daily basis.

If there was a way for me to appreciate the industry and AAA trends - like I did when I was younger and more forgiving - I would jump on that in a second.

Sadly, and it IS sad, I can't see myself doing that - without deluding myself.

I'm my own problem, in that way.

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May 9th, 2011, 16:27
Most people "online" who don't agree with me tend to think I'm an arrogant prick
Well, I haven't said you're not

with no claim to knowledge about that which I speak - which is generally games/entertainment/IT or human nature.
However you obviously have quite some knowledge about games / entertainment / IT and human nature.
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May 9th, 2011, 16:32
Originally Posted by GothicGothicness View Post
Well, I haven't said you're not
Subtle female tactics

However you obviously have quite some knowledge about games / entertainment / IT and human nature.
If I haven't, then I've certainly wasted most of my life contemplating that crap.

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May 9th, 2011, 17:31
Originally Posted by DArtagnan View Post
If there was a way for me to appreciate the industry and AAA trends - like I did when I was younger and more forgiving - I would jump on that in a second.

Sadly, and it IS sad, I can't see myself doing that - without deluding myself.

I'm my own problem, in that way.
Perhaps experience and perspective has tainted our experiences somewhat? When I was younger, I read books because they were books, and I watched any movie because it was a movie, and I played games because they were games. Now, you wouldn't catch me reading Twilight, even if you paid me to do it, I hate most movies that are released, and I can be an absolute curmudgeon when it comes to video games, and perhaps that's because I've seen really good movies, read outstanding novels, and played truly incredible games, and so I desire that from all media. Perhaps it's a certain degree of cynicism regarding a profit-driven (as if there's any other kind) industry. I fully admit that this sounds like snobbery and a sense of entitlement, by the way.
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May 9th, 2011, 17:53
I sometimes feel as though I should write a similar manifesto explaining myself when a certain poster who has appointed himself the cheerleader for any and all RPGs turns his attention to me for mentioning anything remotely negative about one. Then I think about how much time and effort and revisions it takes and go NAH.

I largely agree with what you've written though. I do think that people complain out of frustration because they truly do love something and want it to be better. Why would you bother at all if you didn't care? Of course, there are more positive ways of getting that message out than knee jerk reactions and I think when possible those higher routes should be taken, particularly in giving feedback to the developers.

There actually is a huge thread for constructive criticism in the Dragon Age II section over at the Bioware forums. Everyone has remained very civil (within that thread; outside of it is another story) and calmly and clearly given all their points.

Do I think it will do any good? Honestly, no. It's EA and my experience with them says otherwise, but at least those people are venting their frustrations and a non abrasive manor that no one can give them grief for.
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May 9th, 2011, 18:18
Originally Posted by Captain Buzzkill View Post
Perhaps experience and perspective has tainted our experiences somewhat? When I was younger, I read books because they were books, and I watched any movie because it was a movie, and I played games because they were games. Now, you wouldn't catch me reading Twilight, even if you paid me to do it, I hate most movies that are released, and I can be an absolute curmudgeon when it comes to video games, and perhaps that's because I've seen really good movies, read outstanding novels, and played truly incredible games, and so I desire that from all media. Perhaps it's a certain degree of cynicism regarding a profit-driven (as if there's any other kind) industry. I fully admit that this sounds like snobbery and a sense of entitlement, by the way.
Yes, we're most definitely tainted by our many years of enjoying and consuming games and other kinds of entertainment.

It seems that some people are more prone to analysis and dissection of what they consume, and we like to understand exactly what it is we enjoy - and how our persona responds to various means of distraction.

I know that's the case with me, and I guess you as well.

I can't help but endlessly digging into the core of things, and thinking about games as an armchair designer is something that has taken up an excessive amount of time in my life.

Others are content with just enjoying themselves and letting go, which is something I greatly miss about my younger days. I can't "switch off" unless everything about the experience is "just right" - and if it's not, I start analysing immediately.

Not really what I'd prefer - but I can't help who I am.

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May 9th, 2011, 18:33
I guess, for me anyway, it has to do with the amount of hype surrounding the game. AAA titles that have enjoyed a great deal of mainstream success generate a ton of excitement when it comes time to release a new title, and they're able to coast on the positive vibes generated pre-release, at least for a while. Also, there seems to be this aura of "innovation" that gets generated for new games, and I challenge that each and every time someone starts claiming it. If you're going to innovate, then innovate. Tweaking something isn't innovation. I feel like innovation should really make me sit back and wonder why the industry didn't figure it out until now, you know? So I guess I'm extra critical of games and developers that consistently puff their chests out, but then fail to deliver on what they've been hyping. Conversely, I'm pretty lenient on games and developers that do the opposite. Take "Bulletstorm," for example. Whatever you think about that game personally, at least it doesn't take itself seriously. No-one has ever said, "This game is going to re-define the genre!" From everything I've seen and read, all it's done is taken the most basic of shooter tropes, dialed everything up to 11, and said, "Have fun!" I respect that, and I'm cool with it.
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May 9th, 2011, 19:23
I used to manage a large chain restaurant. They sent me to many management classes. One such class focused on a large study they did which revealed a 10:1 ratio negative to positive feedback. basically if a customer had a bad experience they would tell 10 people and if they had a good experience they would tell 1 person.

Translation : it's human nature to voice your opinion with there is a violation of your expectations.

I for one have no problem with negative comments if they are followed with your opinions as to why.

A blanket statement of da2 sucks has zero value and would be whining in my book but if you say da2 was a great disappointment because (fill in your favorite reason here.) Then to me that has value and can be debated.

To me that is enough, you've stated your case and given opinions to support it. Whether I agree with it or not is something we can debate or agree upon but every one is entitled to their opinion.

I think the problem comes in when you state your case and give your opinions and someone decides that your statement has no value because your opinions don't agree with theirs.

Then they resort to calling you a fanboy, whiner, negative ect.ect. I try to respect everyone's opinion. I can disagree and state my own opinion but who am I to tell someone their opinion is wrong because it differs with mine. Or worse yet stoop to personal attacks and name calling. Differing opinions aren't wrong there just different. They are opinions after all not facts.

Sorry got off on a tangent.

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May 9th, 2011, 19:45
I would like to think my expectations are reasonable. That said, if you hype the hell out of your game, promise some wonderful AI and I get npcs with lobotomies *coughcoughBethesdacoughcough* or you give me a completely different style of game in a sequel *coughcoughBiowarecoughcough* then yes I am going to be annoyed.

I admit I am far more lenient on indie games and smaller development houses than I am on the bigger ones. It annoys me that the gaming press seems to be the polar opposite and that makes for a situation where the smaller developers have a hard time breaking through while the big monopolies sit easy and can sell games no matter what the quality.

For example, a lot of people give the little European developers grief for the English speaking voice acting. Well I'm sorry but not everyone can afford Star Trek or Stargate actors in their game.

Intention counts for me. If I feel like a developer was at least trying and/or had good, sincere intentions then I will cut them some slack. I understand concessions and tradeoffs need to be made but be up front about it and if you have to then apologize after the fact or at least recognize the dissatisfied customers feelings as legtimate. The customer should not be blamed for their negative experience, particularly if the developer or their marketing department went too far with the hype and expectations.
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