Looking for a deeper CRPG

First post, and it a "need help, don't know what to play" type of post. A new personal low But I've seem to have managed to run out of options.

I consider myself to be a rather experienced CRPGer, and I have played plenty of games, including most relatively modern famous ones. At the moment I have no idea what to play next though.

What I'm looking for is a game that fulfills at least some of these criteria:
-Good story (not a simple "go kill evil" type of plot)
-A deep character development system (more along the line of Realms of Arkania than Dragon age 2)
-If party based, interesting tactical combat
-No grind (I hate grind, which sadly kills a lot of older CRPGs, plus almost all MMOs for me, so this one is important))
-A good sense of immersion
-Not a pure hack & slash
-Not a JRPG (unless it has an outstanding story. Xenogears was good,)

Here are some games that I have played in the past, and though were great:
Fallout 1-2 & New Vegas (3 was good, but not great), Morrowind (Daggerfall was good, but too buggy, Oblivion never did it for me), Vampire the masquerade: Bloodlines, Arcanum, Gothic 1-3 (3 with fanpatch), Realms of Arkania, Drakensang (I want river of time, but it is not sold over here, and amazon does not want to ship it to my adress) , The Witcher, Lands of Lore (2 was good, but I found 1 to be better), Mass Effect 1-2 (mainly for their plot and interesting setting), Ultima 4-5, 7-8 (did not like 6 due to its interface, and while 9 was not bad, it suffers when you compare it to the previous games), Ultima underworld 1-2, System shock 2 (disliked the controls in 1), Planescape torment, Icewind dale 1-2 (Baldurs gate was decent, but it lacked that special "something" for me), Anachronox, Alpha Protocol. The list can be made a lot longer, but I think it will give you a general idea about what I like.

Games that I dislike:
Neverwinter nights 1-2 (bland plot, uninteresting characters, no real immersion), Final Fantasy (bland gameplay), Might & Magic 6 (I really disliked the interface), Dragon age 2 (the game failed to make me feel emotionally involved, and combat was uninteresting and far too easy)

My computer is getting old. It can handle The Witcher, Mass effect or Dragon age 2, but not Arcania or The Witcher 2.

Wizardry 8 might fit the bill.

I own that game, but it causes a bluescreen on my computer. I spent about 2h trying to fix the problem (up/downgrading drivers, googling the problem and so on), but I sadly never managed to fix it

Oh dear, I think you have played almost everything…
Have you tried the Nehrim Total Conversion for Oblivion?
Mask of the Betrayer? We had a couple of threads here on where to buy River of Time, maybe you can get it after all?


Oh, and welcome to the Watch!

when you say baldurs gate, are you refering to the saga or just the original one? if its the latter, then i suggest its sequel.

oh there is an expansion pack for nvn2 called ''mask of the betrayer'' which is alot like planescape:torment. its p.cool because you dont need to play the original to play it!

Geneforge
Avernum
Avadon
Lazarus or Ultima 6 Project (Ultima 5 and 6 remake using a total conversion of the Dungeon Siege engine)
Deus Ex (you probably played that already, but wasn't in your list)
Eschalon 1 or 2
Knights of the Chalice (no plot, but fantastic battles and AI)
Crawl Soup has recently been updated
Wizardry (5 - 8 are the best, imo)
Wizards & Warriors (difficult to get running on modern machines)
Legerdemain (rougelikeish RPG)
Quest for Glory series or if you don't want to go that far back there is a remake of Quest for Glory 2
Two Worlds 2 (surprisingly a lot better than the original)
Venetica (so so)
Divinity 2
Albion
Betrayal at Krondor (if you can get past the graphics it is an excellent RPG)
Eye of the Beholder 2
FRUA (Forgotten Realms: Unlimited Adventures..really old, but there are a ton of great user made modules available for it)
Nethergate Resurrection
Depths of Peril (Diablo with some very interesting additions)
Some more Roguelikes for you ADOM, Nethack and Rogue Survivor


A few RPGs to keep your eye on in the future: Dead State, Frayed Knights, Project Zomboid, Dungeons of Dredmor and Age of Decadence.

Those are just the ones off the top of my head and with a little help from our database.

Originally Posted by GhanBuriGhan
Oh dear, I think you have played almost everything…
Have you tried the Nehrim Total Conversion for Oblivion?
Mask of the Betrayer? We had a couple of threads here on where to buy River of Time, maybe you can get it after all?


Oh, and welcome to the Watch!

My issues with NWN2 was sadly not only with the story, but also the interface and AI (having my dwarven friend run back and forth between two enemies without hitting them was, eh, interesting, and the camera had a tendency of getting stuck in the ceiling). Would you say that the story in Mask of the betrayer makes it worth dealing with those issues?
I'll have to dig up that thread and see if I can find a place willing to ship the game to me.
And that total conversion looks like it fixes some of the issues I had with oblivion. I'll have to give it a try.

Originally Posted by SAGO
when you say baldurs gate, are you refering to the saga or just the original one? if its the latter, then i suggest its sequel.

I have played through both 1 & 2, but not throne of Baal. 2 was better than 1. I can't really put my finger on why they games did not impress me more than they did, I should have loved them.

Originally Posted by skavenhorde
Geneforge
Avernum
Avadon
Lazarus or Ultima 6 Project (Ultima 5 and 6 remake using a total conversion of the Dungeon Siege engine)
Deus Ex (you probably played that already, but wasn't in your list)
Eschalon 1 or 2
Knights of the Chalice (no plot, but fantastic battles and AI)
Crawl Soup has recently been updated
Wizardry (5 - 8 are they best, imo)
Wizards & Warriors (difficult to get running on modern machines)
Legerdemain (rougelikeish RPG)
Quest for Glory series or if you don't want to go that far back there is a remake of Quest for Glory 2
Two Worlds 2 (surprisingly a lot better than the original)
Venetica (so so)
Divinity 2
Albion
Betrayal at Krondor (if you can get past the graphics it is an excellent RPG)
Eye of the Beholder 2
FRUA (Forgotten Realms: Unlimited Adventures..really old, but there are a ton of great user made modules available for it)
Nethergate Resurrection
Depths of Peril (Diablo with some very interesting additions)
Some more Roguelikes for you ADOM, Nethack and Rogue Survivor


A few RPGs to keep your eye on in the future: Dead State, Frayed Knights, Project Zomboid, Dungeons of Dredmor and Age of Decadence.

Those are just the ones off the top of my head and with a little help from our database.

Oh, that is quite a list! Yes, I have played Deus Ex (great game, I don't know if I would classify it as an RPG, but it was really fun. Then again, it was made by Warren Spector, and everything he touches seem to turn into gold).

Those Spiderweb software games looks interesting. I remember playing Blade of Exile way back (when I was too young to fully comprehend what was going on, so I never got very far). I'll have to give some of their games a try.

An Ultima 6 remake in Dungeon Siege? I found Dungeon siege to be a rather, how shall I put it, crummy game, but i can see it work. Another one of those that I'll really have to give a try (and considering I own Dungeon siege, that means no money spent).

I have played, and finished both Two worlds games (I did not dislike the first one, unlike many others. It ended a bit too suddenly, and the first few levels were not very fun, but it was a decent enough game).

Now I guess it is time for me to order some of those games. There are plenty of games on that list that I have not even heard of.

Oh, and as for Rogue likes, I seem to have a bit of a love/hate relationship with them. I have spent a fare bit of time with RPG mode in Dwarf fortress, but they have a tendency of getting a bit monotonous and sometimes frustrating.

Lazarus and The Ultima 6 Project are total conversions of the Dungeon Siege engine. You may be surprised with what they did (I know I was )

If you're going with Spiderweb I would highly recommend Geneforge or Nethergate Ressurection. I loved Nethergate, but it didn't sell that well. To this day I really don't know why. You essentially got two games in one. You could play the Romans or the Celts. The game started you off in totally different places depending on which you chose.

Geneforge is also one of my favorites because of all of the creatures you can make and the unique setting. There is an interesting story as well depending on which game you choose to play. Try out some of his demos. They offer up a huge chunk of the game.

Originally Posted by Fnord
(I want river of time, but it is not sold over here, and amazon does not want to ship it to my adress)

Look here, maybe this can help you ?
http://www.rpgwatch.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13847

Originally Posted by Fnord
I own that game, but it causes a bluescreen on my computer. I spent about 2h trying to fix the problem (up/downgrading drivers, googling the problem and so on), but I sadly never managed to fix it

I struggled to get Wizardry 8 working recently myself. Spent more than two hours though! DX6 mode in the graphics configuration utility was the key setting to fixing it for me.

It's really worth it, if you can get it going. The best part about getting it going once is you usually don't need to do it again and can go right to playing

Originally Posted by skavenhorde
Lazarus and The Ultima 6 Project are total conversions of the Dungeon Siege engine. You may be surprised with what they did (I know I was )

If you're going with Spiderweb I would highly recommend Geneforge or Nethergate Ressurection. I loved Nethergate, but it didn't sell that well. To this day I really don't know why. You essentially got two games in one. You could play the Romans or the Celts. The game started you off in totally different places depending on which you chose.

Geneforge is also one of my favorites because of all of the creatures you can make and the unique setting. There is an interesting story as well depending on which game you choose to play. Try out some of his demos. They offer up a huge chunk of the game.

It is nice to see that they are able to do something good with that engine. I have just downloaded the Ultima 6 remake and will start playing it as soon as I get some free time.

Geneforge looks like the most interesting of the lot. As soon as I'm done with Ultima 6, I might pick it up.

Also

Will you look at that:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Drakensang-R…7034235&sr=8-1
A place that ships to where I live actually have it. Now I'm quite a happy CRPGer!
Is the game finally getting a widespread release?

*edit*

Originally Posted by darkling
I struggled to get Wizardry 8 working recently myself. Spent more than two hours though! DX6 mode in the graphics configuration utility was the key setting to fixing it for me.

It's really worth it, if you can get it going. The best part about getting it going once is you usually don't need to do it again and can go right to playing

I think I tried that, but I'll have to give it another shot in a near future.

The Ultima 6 Project will take you hundreds of hours if you do everything. That is one big game. I never did finish it, but it's better than many full retail games. You will find dungeons there that you will truly get lost in.

If you like the old might and magic games, I'll suggest another old shareware series called Yendorian Tales. I'm really not sure if you can find these though. I'll have to see if I can contact the author and see if it's okay to make these public domain. First I'll have to find a 3.5 drive

As the board's resident foaming Wiz8 fanboi, I'm not really sure it fits the bill here. There's a fair bit of grind to the game. It works for me because all that combat drives the wonderful character development, but with the way the OP emphasized "no grind", I'm just not sure he'd be happy. And heaven help him when he got to the Rapax Castle.

Get Avadon! Play on hard. It's the newest oldschool RPG around, and the first of a new series. Plenty of reviews around for it. (even if they mostly appear to have not played it!) It's very easy to start, but just go with it. You'll get your challenge.

Knights of the Chalice is another excellent one. Best DnD turn based system ever. KOTC2 is in the making with lots more classes and very fun looking tweaks, such as monk being a high BAB class. I'd highly recommend this, but the graphics are not that crash hot.

Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup is a freebie and totally fantastic. The story is so deep and complex. Will he get the orb? Wont he get the orb?! Edge of your seat stuff! Seriously though, its really good.

Wizardry 8 had me hooked for a while. Got kinda annoyed me the easy random battles and the combat speed being a little slow for the no-brainers.

If you like IWD1 (my least favourite black isle game) you'll surely like Baldurs Gate 2. I've just started playing it again with 2 friends coop. Our party is a Helf ranger/cleric, elf sorcerer (thats me!) and a human cavalier. We'll clock it easy and it will be about the 15th time I've played it through. Such a great game. The best coop RPG ever. IWD2 was pretty good too, though, with heart of fury mode and all.

Witcher2… why don't you look into a new graphics card? I recently got a GTX560ti for $250 and I can run it on high perfectly in my 4 year old rig. Should see crysis2, phwoooor. Nanosuit is an RPG in its own right. Very fun!

Originally Posted by crpgnut
The Ultima 6 Project will take you hundreds of hours if you do everything. That is one big game. I never did finish it, but it's better than many full retail games. You will find dungeons there that you will truly get lost in.

If you like the old might and magic games, I'll suggest another old shareware series called Yendorian Tales. I'm really not sure if you can find these though. I'll have to see if I can contact the author and see if it's okay to make these public domain. First I'll have to find a 3.5 drive

I'm not a completionist, which should free up some time for other games Sadly, the interface is a bit annoying, and the sight range is quite horrible. The issues I have had so far have all been engine related, but they are still rather annoying issues. I'll play the game for a bit longer, but there is a high chance that I won't finish it.

I have actually only played Might & Magic 6, in the main might and magic series, but I found the controls to be a bit of an issue. If they are more comfortable in the older games, I should probably give them a shot (GOG has the first 6 games for $10), but I don't really know what a good starting point would be (if they are in fact worth playing for a person who don't have any nostalgic ties to the series). And while I usually don't mind poor graphics, I'm not entirely sure if I'm ready to go back to this.

Originally Posted by dteowner
As the board's resident foaming Wiz8 fanboi, I'm not really sure it fits the bill here. There's a fair bit of grind to the game. It works for me because all that combat drives the wonderful character development, but with the way the OP emphasized "no grind", I'm just not sure he'd be happy. And heaven help him when he got to the Rapax Castle.

They way I should have put it is probably "No monotonous gameplay" (which grinding clearly is). If combat remains interesting and challenging, then a bit of light grind can work, but leveling up by farming a few monsters over and over again is less than entertaining (or even worse, grind like the Sacrifice virtue grind in Ultima 4… that nearly killed the game for me)

[quote]

Originally Posted by SirJames
Get Avadon! Play on hard. It's the newest oldschool RPG around, and the first of a new series. Plenty of reviews around for it. (even if they mostly appear to have not played it!) It's very easy to start, but just go with it. You'll get your challenge.

Knights of the Chalice is another excellent one. Best DnD turn based system ever. KOTC2 is in the making with lots more classes and very fun looking tweaks, such as monk being a high BAB class. I'd highly recommend this, but the graphics are not that crash hot.

I'll prioritize Geneforge and Avadon then, they both look like quality games. Geneforge seem to have a bit more of a non-standard gameplay style, though, which tickles my interest. But I'll let the demos decide which game I'll play through first (if any).

Witcher2… why don't you look into a new graphics card? I recently got a GTX560ti for $250 and I can run it on high perfectly in my 4 year old rig. Should see crysis2, phwoooor. Nanosuit is an RPG in its own right. Very fun!

Sadly I think my computer is beyond redemption. Its specs:
3,2ghz (HT but not dual core)
3gb ram
Nvidia geforce 7600GT (256mb).
I don't think a simple graphics card upgrade would save it. The motherboard has a PCI-E 1.0a slot, which should, in theory, work with later PCI-E cards, but in reality this early slot has known issues with PCI-E 2 cards.

Originally Posted by Fnord
My issues with NWN2 was sadly not only with the story, but also the interface and AI (having my dwarven friend run back and forth between two enemies without hitting them was, eh, interesting, and the camera had a tendency of getting stuck in the ceiling). Would you say that the story in Mask of the betrayer makes it worth dealing with those issues?

IIRC the AI has been improved, or at least using Tony K's Companion and Monster AI helped… Kaedrin's PRC pack can also add to the experience. Regardless, Mask of the Betrayer is a great game(IMO).

-EDIT-

Sadly I think my computer is beyond redemption. Its specs:
3,2ghz (HT but not dual core)
3gb ram
Nvidia geforce 7600GT (256mb).
I don't think a simple graphics card upgrade would save it. The motherboard has a PCI-E 1.0a slot, which should, in theory, work with later PCI-E cards, but in reality this early slot has known issues with PCI-E 2 cards.

Don't take this the wrong way, but if you can afford it, you might want to consider purchasing(and/or building) a new PC. If I'm reading that right, you have a single core CPU? AMD's bulldozer is just around the corner, unless something has changed it should be released later this month. Which will at a minimum put pressure on Intel's offerings, thus forcing competitive prices out of both camps or it might even surpass Intel's line up as it's a native Octo-core.

The 7 series is so old that it's not even a unified shader arch(debuted with the G80 and R600, respectively)… Anyway it's worth noting that GPUs are very affordable(IMO). The GTX 460 768mb cards can be had for $100-130 when on sale or w/MIR (or less if you're willing to hunt around for a deal - Slickdeals is a great place to search). Though that is only useful for US consumers… If not a US consumer, sorry, forget I said anything - I know prices are insane across the pond. ><

Originally Posted by Fnord
I have actually only played Might & Magic 6, in the main might and magic series, but I found the controls to be a bit of an issue. If they are more comfortable in the older games, I should probably give them a shot (GOG has the first 6 games for $10), but I don't really know what a good starting point would be (if they are in fact worth playing for a person who don't have any nostalgic ties to the series). And while I usually don't mind poor graphics, I'm not entirely sure if I'm ready to go back to this

You should check out Grayface's M&M page. He has patches for M&M 6, 7, & 8 that allow you to tweak the controls and use mouse look.

Originally Posted by MasterKromm
IIRC the AI has been improved, or at least using Tony K's Companion and Monster AI helped… Kaedrin's PRC pack can also add to the experience. Regardless, Mask of the Betrayer is a great game(IMO).

-EDIT-



Don't take this the wrong way, but if you can afford it, you might want to consider purchasing(and/or building) a new PC. If I'm reading that right, you have a single core CPU? AMD's bulldozer is just around the corner, unless something has changed it should be released later this month. Which will at a minimum put pressure on Intel's offerings, thus forcing competitive prices out of both camps or it might even surpass Intel's line up as it's a native Octo-core.

The 7 series is so old that it's not even a unified shader arch(debuted with the G80 and R600, respectively)… Anyway it's worth noting that GPUs are very affordable(IMO). The GTX 460 768mb cards can be had for $100-130 when on sale or w/MIR (or less if you're willing to hunt around for a deal - Slickdeals is a great place to search). Though that is only useful for US consumers… If not a US consumer, sorry, forget I said anything - I know prices are insane across the pond. ><

Ah, I'll have to check those out if I do try Mask of the betrayer. Hopefully that won't be as frustrating as playing the core came without any mods.


Sadly I can't afford a new computer at the moment. My current computer is 4 years old, and cost me 350€ when I bought it (minus case, monitor, HD, mouse and keyboard), so it is a small miracle that I can still use it. I do sadly live on the other side of the pond, and in a country well known for its high prices on top of that. Heck, it is not rare for it to actually be cheaper for me to order things from the states than to buy it here, even when you include postage (most games, books & movies that I buy these days are from the UK, due to its far lower prices).

Originally Posted by JDR13
You should check out Grayface's M&M page. He has patches for M&M 6, 7, & 8 that allow you to tweak the controls and use mouse look.

The issues I had with the interface were sadly beyond just the basic controls.

I do have a JRPG suggestion.

If you have a PS2, give Persona 4 a look. Heavy plot/character wise, set up as a murder mystery in a current day setting. It is a party based game, but character development is pretty much limited to the main character. Despite that, combat is turn based and tactical, with interesting boss battles.

I gotta get that Persona 4 some day. I'm actually re-playing Shadow Hearts: Covenant on the PS2 right now. Still pretty fun. The story isn't much but the characters are so 'over the top' that I think some of them have achieved escape velocity.

It is pretty hard to add to that list. There are only so many games out there. Maybe it's time to look for an additional genre? Perhaps time for me to start pushing somebody else towards Egosoft?