The Bethesda-Hate Phenomenon

you won't find any hatred for them from me. I loved Oblivion (more than Morrowind), loved Morrowind (more than Daggerfall), loved Daggerfall (hmm… too long ago to remember if more or the same as Arena) and loved Arena. Looking forward to Skyrim, though I'm not 'following' it. I'll buy it when it's released, but won't know much about it except that it has dragons.

Originally Posted by Alrik Fassbauer
Is this an excuse to deliver bad games ?

Bad games acording to whom? you?

Oblivion had excelent scores, had realy good sales.

The fact that YOU think its a bad game, doesnt mean its a bad game.

I think minecraft is a terrible game, millions of people probably disagree with me though, that doesnt make me right and that certainly doesnt make minecraft a terrible game.

Originally Posted by KnightPT
The fact that YOU think its a bad game, doesnt mean its a bad game.

I do like Fable I, for example.

I do like Zanzarah, which is basically a game about training fairies and let them battle in order to overcome an opponent.

I do like games that many people here do not like.

And that - imho - speaks a lot about those who like or don't like things.

Originally Posted by wolfing
you won't find any hatred for them from me. I loved Oblivion (more than Morrowind), loved Morrowind (more than Daggerfall), loved Daggerfall (hmm… too long ago to remember if more or the same as Arena) and loved Arena. Looking forward to Skyrim, though I'm not 'following' it. I'll buy it when it's released, but won't know much about it except that it has dragons.

I wish I had your resolve, wolfing. I can't stop myself from reading every single article about the game. I've got Skyrim as a Google news entry and I read the updates daily. What I'm doing intead, to keep the game fresh, is not playing any other crpgs until Skyrim comes out. That way, I'll have developed a really strong desire to absorb myself into a game once it arrives. We'll see if my resolve holds out though. I almost reinstalled Oblivion the other day to play a new mod that features a new continent.

You have to admit that they're not hyping Skyrim nearly as much though. I'm a fan and I really got tired of all the marketing for Oblivion. They waited much longer to start the hype machine this time, plus I like that they allowed the gaming press to just play the alpha and let them hype the game instead. I thought that was a smart move by Todd, Pete and the gang.

Yes I'll agree to that. Things are better this time around, and as mentioned I'm following Skyrim… and hoping.

To be honest, I would be glad if Bethesda games would me make me hate them. At least then I would care.. but I simply don't. I'm always in doubt about the games and I always let myself get convinced by all the high praises to buy and play them and I'm always disappointed.

For me the main problem is a lack of.. connection to the world, mainly due to lack of an interesting story and interesting Characters. A world isn't alive and meaningful by just making it big and filling it with lots of NPCs nobody cares about. It doesn't even make it an interesting sandbox game.
One thing I never understood is why people seem to believe a sandbox game doesn't need good writing. They are the ones, that need some of the best imo, because the world itself (apart from the main storyline) has to be meaningful and interesting. Why should I explore the world or roleplay in it, if nothing reacts to me, if all exploration gets me are some generic dungeons with loot?

I think it's great Bethesda is trying and is having success with their large open worlds, but as long as they think they can do without some excellent writers, I don't think I will ever be able to be a fan of their worlds.

It's not that we wouldn't like stellar writing and awesome characters in our sandbox - but its a realization of the realities of creating a game with real-world limited resources that makes us accept that a game can't focus and excel in both creating a huge world and all that at the same time. Just like I grudingly accept the lifeless and non-interactive environments of Bioware games because they offer great storys and detailed characters. Or the much smaller environments and somewhat shallower NPC's of middle ground games like the Gothics. Maybe someday a game will come along that magically does both, but until then…

I guess it just takes good imagination to play a TES game. I'm generally the author when I play Oblivion; at least after the first playthrough. I thought the story with Martin was well told. The weakness was Oblviion itself. The gates were very repetitive and dull. One playthrough of the main quest was enough.

All other games in Cyrodiil have been told mostly in my mind. One time I'm an alchemist seeking to fill my laboratory with as many reagents as I can find. The next time I'm an archeologist trying to discover every Ayleid ruin and collect the Welkynd stones so that I can attempt to open a portal to another world. The next game I'm a vampire, who wants to find a cure, etc. Understand that the internet can ruin these games if you have no willpower. Could I find a cure for lycanthropy in 15 minutes on the wiki? Of course! The best thing to do is lock yourself in a room with Skyrim and stay away from forums, blogs, websites, etc. until you're done with it.

The problem with imagining your own little game IMHO, is that if you're in a game to roleplay, MMO or MUD's are so much better. To create your own stories in a dead and boring world is not fun for me. That is why a single player games needs either great gameplay or a great story and character, or even better both.

We'll just have to disagree . I've never played a multi-player game except for Minions of Mirth. I have played PnP AD&D and several others, but that was many years ago.

I also love the gameplay. I love the alchemy, magic, crafting, simple combat, along with my favorite: exploration. It's like somebody created a company to make the games that "I" love to play. I like Fallout almost as well as TES.

I will say that better writing makes the games even more special. I love how Obsidian added life to FNV, though I found the Mr. House questline silly. I wouldn't mind seeing Obsidian get a chance to write their vision into a TES game/expansion. The characters in FNV were a magnitude deeper than the NPC's in the TES series.

@Ghan

Yes and no . Sure there are budget constraints, but if a game company can spend several millions every incarnation to develop a new better looking graphic engine, there should be one or two million left, to get some creative writers on board.
Is this expensive and time consuming? Absolutely, but I'll go with Warren Spectors view on that topic. We as players shouldn't just accept everything "because it is so" but always want more, challenge the devs to be creative, to try better.
Because if we don't, who else will?

Originally Posted by GothicGothicness
The problem with imagining your own little game IMHO, is that if you're in a game to roleplay, MMO or MUD's are so much better. To create your own stories in a dead and boring world is not fun for me. That is why a single player games needs either great gameplay or a great story and character, or even better both.

From my admittedly rather limited experience with MMOs and player behavior in them, I think that is VERY debatable. In theory -sure! In practice - not in my experience.

Originally Posted by Laverre
@Ghan

Yes and no . Sure there are budget constraints, but if a game company can spend several millions every incarnation to develop a new better looking graphic engine, there should be one or two million left, to get some creative writers on board.
Is this expensive and time consuming? Absolutely, but I'll go with Warren Spectors view on that topic. We as players shouldn't just accept everything "because it is so" but always want more, challenge the devs to be creative, to try better.
Because if we don't, who else will?

Yet, "despite all my rage, I'm still just a rat in a cage"… I agree in principle, but I try not to get too hung up on thiings I can't change.
Also, I'll be bold and say that the writing has actually improved over the TES series, aspects of it, at least. It further improved in FO3 (relative to TES, not relative to FO 1+2) and apparently FO:NV which I haven't played yet, is almost where you want these games to be - so maybe there is hope.

But Ghan NV was not written by Bethesda so anyone expecting that level of writing from them is fooling themselves.

Storywise, I think Bethesda does really weird mythology and lore very well. The problem is that since Oblivion it seems that has been mostly relegated to the in game books and backstory.

As much as I dislike the Oblivion main quest, I did actually like the Sheogorath/Jyggalag stuff in the Shivering Isles.

I know. In a way NV does not counter my point above - since Obsidian had engine and tools all ready to go and could concentrate on content exclusively. Same for Shivering Isles. Thats why I think "milking" a game engine can be a goid thing. I do also not deny that Obsidian has far better writers than Bethesda. The best, IMHO.

I had a good time with Oblivion, but completely understand the criticisms as well.

I'm optimistic about Skyrim. I'll tell you my theory why. (my wild-ass theory follows)

Oblivion was pushed out as a system-seller for the brand-new Xbox 360, and "needed" to be streamlined to appeal to as many people as possible. The latest TES is here now after years of people complaining about Oblivion, and doesn't need to be a system-seller this time around.

I still think Oblivion gets more of a bad rap than it deserved. The hard level scaling was lazy, as were most of the bland dungeons and the repetitive Oblivion gates. But it was still enjoyable to play for me.

I think the complaints about Bethesda's writing are somewhat exaggerated.

The npc dialogue is sub-par no doubt, but the lore is some of the best in the industry, and that needs to be considered. The quest plots fall somewhere in the middle imo, with some of them being quite interesting, while others are laughably bad.

Better voice acting is something they also really need to work on imo. Maybe even more so than the writing.

Originally Posted by JDR13
Better voice acting is something they also really need to work on imo. Maybe even more so than the writing.

Most definitely! This is, by far, the weakest element of Oblivion. Voice acting is a stand-alone profession now, so hire a good studio and record. Skyrim is to have 70 voice actors, so this should help a lot. They should hire Jeff Dunham and Terry Fator
Those two could probably do Oblivion by themselves and sound MUCH better than what we ended up with!

Originally Posted by JDR13
In fact, I would argue that Bioware get a lot more hate nowadays.

I wont even buy bioware games now.

Originally Posted by KnightPT
Oblivion had excelent scores, had realy good sales.

I just want to point out that sales is never a good indicator of a good game. Wii sports, Just dance for example are proof that terrible games can sell well.