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December 1st, 2011, 13:18
On the web site of a German gaming mag The Kotick is quoted saying that Bioware/EA "will lose money on that", and that the only ones who will profit from that will be LucasArts. He claims to have worked long enough with LucasArts to be able to say that, in this sense (don't have the exact words in my mind anymore, except this "they will lose money on that").
Unfortunately the web site gives no source for that quotation.
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December 2nd, 2011, 03:38
Yeah, and Pachter said it will more likely make $80 million per year (news item at GameSpot). I'm thinking Pachter is a bit less biased then Kotick.

But back to Star Wars….

It *IS* an MMO so a lot of your fun will be determined by who you play with. If you just close your chat window, turn off nameplates, and pretend it's a single player game then you still might get your money's worth out of it but I doubt you'll have as much fun as you did with KotOR. If you do find a fun group of folks to play with, though, then this should be plenty of fun.
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December 2nd, 2011, 10:10
Seems I've been invited to the regular beta test now. Guess I'll give it a more thorough spin - and give them as much feedback as I can.

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December 2nd, 2011, 14:57
Oh it will make money, I have no doubt about it. At least they'll recover the expenses and make lots of money the first year. My only concern is after the first year, since this game focuses on stories so much, they better get ready to add more storylines fast, unless they want to become a WoW clone at endgame and just have a few dungeons to do over and over and over to complete your pink battle armor set.
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December 2nd, 2011, 17:03
That is my fear/hope as well. I fear they will fall into the same routine as WoW, but I hope they continue to produce story driven content. It would be amazing to get my sci-fi RPG fill from a long lasting MMO, but I certainly don't expect it.
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December 2nd, 2011, 17:09
They will monetize it to hell after 2-3 years so I suggest not waiting too long before trying it out. It's a lot more interesting playing these mmos when your server is buzzing with activity.
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December 2nd, 2011, 18:31
Let us know if your opinion changes at all.

Originally Posted by DArtagnan View Post
Seems I've been invited to the regular beta test now. Guess I'll give it a more thorough spin - and give them as much feedback as I can.
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December 4th, 2011, 20:36
Unfortunately, it was only a weekend test - and the whole beta-test ends today.

I found a class that appealed to me more (Sniper, Imperial Agent) - but my opinion of the game stands.

I think it's the lack of gameplay innovation and the dreadfully stale approach to most of the vital aspects that kills it for me.

The combat, while good looking, just isn't exciting in terms of the feel and flow - especially not in PvP (which is way too slowpaced for my tastes). WoW, while many claim it to be similar, is vastly better. It's about the pacing and the nuance of visual feedback. Something that Blizzard did so incredibly well, that no other MMO can approach it - except perhaps Age of Conan.

But the whole formula is just too derivative and tired - and they should really have taken more chances with it. Well, maybe that's not the way to put it. They've clearly taken almost everything from WoW - but they did it without passion or a true sense of the MMO paradigm and how it has evolved over the years, and especially how other games on the horizon are evolving it. It's as if everything about SWTOR has been researched rather than designed by a talented designer.

I have a feeling it will be very successful - and I'd estimate around 2-4 million subscribers in the short-term. For the long-term, I fear it will fall on its face, though it may take longer than it has for others.

I know some people will want to check out all the character stories, but I think most will not endure more than 2-3 stories before the gameplay stagnates the whole thing. Still, that's quite a lot of playtime and I don't think I can accuse the game of not offering value-for-money. Certainly not if you're able to overlook the gameplay to experience the story, and in that case - it's a really good deal, even when subscribing.

But I see absolutely no reason to play beyond the story, unless you want a lesser version of what other games already excel at. They seem to want to repeat the mistakes of WoW for world PvP - and they most certainly can't offer a better PvP experience for the cloned stuff. Even Rift felt much superior to what I've played of SWTOR PvP (which, admittedly, isn't much).

"Operations" aka raids - doesn't exactly represent the step forward one would have expected from a game coming out 7 years after WoW.

SWTOR offers a level-to-cap experience that's story-driven. Something that I've longed for since they started the whole themepark paradigm. It's true that it offers similar features to WoW, on paper, for the endgame - but the truth is that they're just not implemented with the same skill or craftsmanship.

Essentially, after you've experienced what you desire of the story (including the companions) - the only reason to play SWTOR is for the setting, and you're going to have to settle for an inferior world design and an inferior combat flow.
Last edited by DArtagnan; December 5th, 2011 at 10:18.

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December 4th, 2011, 20:52
Doesn't sound all that appealing to a WoW veteran, although I can understand why they would do what they did. WoW is a pretty succesful and addicting formula and they already have a major license to draw people in so there's probably less need to take chances.

As someone who is probably going to continue to play WoW into the next expansion, I'm at least happy to see some competition on the market. The plus side of another WoW like game is that it can try out somewhat different things and the two games can see what works better and implement it. WoW has always been pretty good at stealing some of the better ideas from other games, and lord knows they could use some inspiration at this point.
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December 4th, 2011, 21:17
Originally Posted by fadedc View Post
WoW has always been pretty good at stealing some of the better ideas from other games, and lord knows they could use some inspiration at this point.
Yes, they should get back to its original (pre-expansion) design where the game let gamers discover things for themselves!
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December 5th, 2011, 02:36
Originally Posted by hishadow View Post
Yes, they should get back to its original (pre-expansion) design where the game let gamers discover things for themselves!
There are definietely some older things I'd like to see brought back, particularly seperate 10 and 25 man dungeons, and some of the more interesting (if unabalanced) itemization from vanilla. For all the complexity that's been added to the game, there are some areas that have gotten way too streamlined. When it comes to discovering things though, it depends on what your talking about. There are some things that everyone looked up on the internet anyway that I have no problem with them providing information about directly.
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December 5th, 2011, 02:52
That streamline is something I really hate. For me it kinda kills the gameplay. Rift is a good example of those elements, despite having a lot of good elements. You end up just following pointers, linearly from point to point, despite the openness of the gameworld. Achievement this, collected that. I'm mentally preparing myself to play SWTOR as a singleplayer game though. A single playthrough. I think it'll save me some grievance.
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December 5th, 2011, 10:52
There are definietely some older things I'd like to see brought back, particularly seperate 10 and 25 man dungeons, and some of the more interesting (if unabalanced) itemization from vanilla. For all the complexity that's been added to the game, there are some areas that have gotten way too streamlined. When it comes to discovering things though, it depends on what your talking about. There are some things that everyone looked up on the internet anyway that I have no problem with them providing information about directly.
All I really wanted from WoW was a reason to grow in power (which is the entire gameplay, really) - beyond entry to the next raid. I wanted to be able to exist in the world - and not in instances, where the world is just some kind of gigantic train station, where you're waiting to be transported.

I wanted stuff like housing and meaningful open world PvP.

It's really sad when you consider the fantastic technology Blizzard created, not to mention the amazing world of Azeroth. They really had the opportunity to implement a strong world PvP structure - and they could have done it in a million ways. If they didn't want it to affect casuals, then there are lots of ways to design around that.

WoW was far from my first MMO, but it was the first one I lost myself in. Even if I played UO/EQ/DAoC before it - I never got into them, and I never played them more than a few weeks. I just didn't like the MMO paradigm.

To this day, I'm not sure why WoW changed my mind - but I think it's because it was something I could share with the GF (she became an even bigger fan).

But I wasn't aware of the gear-upgrade design approach. I was literally shocked when The Burning Crusade came out and they made a 100% gear reset. I'm not really a loot whore - so I wasn't pissed off so much as simply astonished at how hollow that design formula was. It dawned on me that everything you worked for was going to be VERY temporary, and every single "reward" was an illusion. Blatantly so, actually.

So, the entire themepark "vertical gear-progression at endgame" design approach just lost its flavor instantly.

That's probably why I can't get excited for SWTOR at all, because they seem to be doing the exact same thing. Something which can be said for almost all "big name" MMOs since WoW. AoC, WAR, Aion, Rift, LotR, and others. I've tried them all, and it's the same crap over and over.

Well, Age of Conan almost worked - but was destroyed by incompetence and a lack of coherent vision. Now it's just another run-of-the-mill themepark game.

Yes, the themepark formula is boring to me - but I still think it can work if they evolve it. Guild Wars 2 seems to be a true evolution - even if it's still the same basic design at the core. But SWTOR is more devolution than evolution, sadly.

ArcheAge remains the only game with enough potential to make me stick with the genre, in terms of hoping for something special.

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December 5th, 2011, 11:59
I don't really agree with you regarding WoW vs TOR combat. I feel TOR combat is faster, more engaging, with better animations. I especially like Bounty Hunter/Trooper, which is weird because I usually don't enjoy such classes. They simply feel badass already from the start, blowing stuff up and crowd controlling enemies without breaking a sweat. There's no class similar to the Trooper/BH in WoW.

That being said, it's only a tiny step in the right direction in my opinion, and certainly not something that will add to the overall experience for someone who is tired of WoW-like gameplay. TOR really is WoW in space, with added focus on story. The story thing really works though, at least for me. It's miles ahead of WoW in that regard.
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December 5th, 2011, 12:10
Originally Posted by Maylander View Post
I don't really agree with you regarding WoW vs TOR combat. I feel TOR combat is faster, more engaging, with better animations. I especially like Bounty Hunter/Trooper, which is weird because I usually don't enjoy such classes. They simply feel badass already from the start, blowing stuff up and crowd controlling enemies without breaking a sweat. There's no class similar to the Trooper/BH in WoW.

That being said, it's only a tiny step in the right direction in my opinion, and certainly not something that will add to the overall experience for someone who is tired of WoW-like gameplay. TOR really is WoW in space, with added focus on story. The story thing really works though, at least for me. It's miles ahead of WoW in that regard.
Well, it's based on my experience with 3 classes so far. My highest level was level 14 with the Sniper - so I can't speak about other classes.

I don't know how to describe it, but I suppose it's just down to a matter of taste.

My primary issue is with the GCD being to pervasive, and the drawn-out battles in PvP. That was a deliberate decision - as far as I know - and they WANT battles to last longer. Obviously, a lot of people enjoy that - but I hate it. I love fast-paced combat where you HAVE to be ready and react quickly. WAR and Rift were similarly slow and cumbersome to me, but I've read several posts from people who consider them equal - or even superior - to WoW combat. When I hear that, I question my sanity - or if we're playing different games, but ultimately I just don't know what it is.

Since I've been a rogue in WoW primarily (for a loooooong time) - that's what I'm used to. Despite all the changes and balance efforts - it was always an extremely satisfying class to play. Never a dull moment, and considering it's an MMO with hundreds of players potentially in the same area - it's EXTREMELY responsive.

SWTOR enforces a 1.5 second GCD - and the vast majority of abilities share it. WoW rogue has a 1 second GCD - and a lot of the abilities ignore it, meaning you can instantly perform a variety of actions. Bioware have openly said they designed it that way because they want their animations to pay off - and make more things visible.

While I'm sure that's true, I happen to believe that Blizzard are particularly competent when it comes to netcode and "gameplay feel" - and I MUCH MUCH MUCH prefer their approach to having everything animate visibly.

Furthermore, I think SWTOR has a poor feedback system compared to WoW. In WoW, every single ability for every single class has a DISTINCT visual indicator and a DISTINCT sound. It means you will instinctively KNOW what's going on, whether or not you're watching icons. SWTOR is better than others, granted, but it has absolutely nothing on WoW in terms of combat.

Still, there's no accounting for taste - and we obviously don't see these things in the same way.

All I can recommend is for every player to try it out for himself, and even despite my concerns - I think most players can find something to enjoy, at least for the first month or so.

My "warning" is more about not getting overly excited - though I could of course be entirely wrong about my observations.

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December 5th, 2011, 14:08
Oh, I also forgot to mention the overabundance of similar abilities. I can't speak about later levels, but already at level 14 - I had several superfluous abilities - or at least abilities that did basically the same thing. I know that some games don't reveal themselves until you're at the endgame, but certainly at this stage - I didn't see the "big picture" at all. That was at level 14.

That's another absolutely fantastic thing about WoW, at least when I played it a few years ago, that pretty much EVERY single ability was unique and distinct, and you could easily sense that some designer with a brain had thought the class through.

I will readily admit that I've only played this game for ~20 hours - and they could have designed the game in a way that I just don't comprehend. Sadly, the whole game reeks of me-too design, so I have no real reason to trust in Bioware for that part.

Especially not when I think about how they designed Mass Effect and Dragon Age. They don't seem to understand mechanics on a deep or complex level.

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December 5th, 2011, 15:09
Originally Posted by DArtagnan View Post
That's another absolutely fantastic thing about WoW, at least when I played it a few years ago, that pretty much EVERY single ability was unique and distinct, and you could easily sense that some designer with a brain had thought the class through.
Isn't that the case for most games / MMOs especially nowadays, that they are so much combat-oriented ?

In DDO, I have never seen a single quest where social stats or talents were of use.
And that, although things like "Charisma", "Wisdom" exist.

And my fear would be that people would just come up with "solution packages" for non-combat missions, like "you answer in the following question to solve the quest : 1-2-1-3-4", like I have seen similar solutions for adventure games.

Personally, I would really like to see real checks of non-combat elements in the game, and not things like "your wisdom/intelligence is too low to pull that lever" (I have seen similar things in a few DDO missions, actually).

Personally, I'd call that "social gaming", with a different definition of what is called "social gaming" today.
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December 5th, 2011, 15:15
I'm not sure what you're asking, really.

If you're asking me simply if MMOs are very combat-oriented - then you're very correct.

Would I like to have more non-combat content? Yes, indeed.

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December 5th, 2011, 15:24
No, I'm just stating. Nothing more, nothing less.
Rhetoric question.
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December 5th, 2011, 15:26
Well yes, rogues, kitty druids and unholy death knights all have 1 sec GCD, but everyone else has 1,5 just like TOR, so that's what I'm used to. As far as animations go, I'm pretty sure you wouldn't be able to recognize anything in WoW after just 20 hours of gameplay - telling the difference between Crusader Strike and Templar's Verdict? Not a chance, no way. The subtle differences will come in time in TOR, it just takes a while, which it did in WoW too. There's plenty of confusing abilities there: All the different totems and shocks of a Shaman? Lightning Bolt vs Chain Lightning? Identical animations all over the place, with small differences that are learned over time.

Show me someone who can play a high level hunter for a few hours, having never played WoW before, and knows the difference between the various shots:
- Arcane Shot
- Multishot
- Viper Sting
- Chimaera Shot
- Black Arrow
- Wyvern Sting
- Aimed Shot
- Serpent Sting
- Scatter Shot
- Kill Shot
- Tranquilizing Shot
- Cobra Shot

The animations are identical, you'll just have to see what happens to know the effect. There's no way anyone can know the difference just based on the animation unless they've either played a hunter or pvp extensively.
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