RPGs with good ideas that fell short

Jade Empire, great concept, actually a very original setting (finally something new instead of the same old fantasy cliché). It was a good game, but not as great as it could've been; too short, too clumsy, too repetitive combat for a martial arts game. In general, it felt too much like a console port instead of a solid PC RPG. The setting, story, characters and so on could make a game worthy of a top ten list.

I would still rate the game fairly high, but I also see such potential in it. What it could've been instead of what it currently is.

I have to say Gothic 3. The structure of the game is absolutely brilliant, kinda how all games should be made. It was just unfinished.

When it comes to Oblivion I would say it's a bad idea that fell far. Basicly it's a terrible RPG, with a magnificant engine.

Gothic 3 and Oblivion seconded. I could add a few other obvious ones that may or may not qualify as RPG's (Deus Ex 2 and Thief: Deadly Shadows, anyone?), but just to be different, here's one that's bound to cause some upset:

Planescape: Torment.

Absolutely awesome, perhaps hitherto unparalleled originality in storytelling, setting, morality choices, characterization, dialogue, and even the story itself that is immensely significant to you, The Nameless One, but a far cry from the usual "orphan destined to save the world from the evil of" fantasy plotlines.

OTOH it has lousy combat, tedious user interface, severe game balance issues (e.g. you get to choose from a warrior, stealth, or magic-user path, but only the magic-user path is properly fleshed-out and the stealth path is as good as unplayable), severe performance issues, and pretty severe bugs.

Thing is, the unique strengths of PS:T are so strong that they make it worth playing even through all the annoyance -- but by Jupiter what a game it would have been given a bit more time to balance and polish it, add a bit more intelligent tactical challenge, and flesh out the warrior and stealth character paths!

Never had any difficulties with the warrior path, but the stealth path is rather useless yes.

Can someone tell me what the 'GOOD IDEAS' were in Deus Ex Invisible War that I missed … I thought it was a suck-fest resource pig of a crappy mediocre shooter from end to end. But aside from that I have no strong feelings on the subject

Originally Posted by Prime Junta
Gothic 3 and Oblivion seconded. I could add a few other obvious ones that may or may not qualify as RPG's (Deus Ex 2 and Thief: Deadly Shadows, anyone?)

Well, Deus Ex 2 was certainly not a very good game - but I don't understand what people have so much against Thief 3? Actually I kinda liked that one. I liked that they added a city for the "between missions" part, I liked that I could accumulate loot, buy and sell stuff.. and I liked the non-linear parts where I could choose between missions. Plus I thought it looked great

Originally Posted by JemyM
I have to say Gothic 3. The structure of the game is absolutely brilliant, kinda how all games should be made. It was just unfinished.

When it comes to Oblivion I would say it's a bad idea that fell far. Basicly it's a terrible RPG, with a magnificant engine.

I agree with the comment about Gothic 3.

As for Oblivion, the idea is great, but to put so much into such a large world adds incredibly more scope to cover by the developers. Oblivion was a great attempt at such a huge game. I know it gets boring after a while, but I think the whole Lore, History and idea of the game was amazing.

Originally Posted by KasperFauerby
Well, Deus Ex 2 was certainly not a very good game - but I don't understand what people have so much against Thief 3? Actually I kinda liked that one. I liked that they added a city for the "between missions" part, I liked that I could accumulate loot, buy and sell stuff.. and I liked the non-linear parts where I could choose between missions. Plus I thought it looked great

It wasn't as bad as most hardcore fans feared, but it also wasn't as good as they wished. The AI was lousy… there can be no doubt about that. It is obvious that a game like Thief more then other games depends on a strong AI. Since this was already the third part in the Thief series you would expect a better AI than in the prvious games, but instead the AI was worse.
Due to the fact that the game was developed cross-plattform the levels were smaller then they actually had to be if it had been developed just for the PC (hence the zoning in certain levels).
There were other minor aspects that were a bit annoying. Nothing major, but… annoying. For example the fact that the rope arrow was removed. I always felt that this was one of the best ideas I've seen in such a game. It was just amazing what you could actually do with those things…
And personally I also think that the story wasn't as nearly as interesting as that of the first Part - but then again it's pretty hard to come up with such a brilliant story like the one in The Dark Project.
Overall I think Thief 3 is indeed a game that despite the good ideas behind it fell short. Sure it was fun, it looked good, but if the developers had invested a bit more work and heartblood it could have been a major success.

Originally Posted by KasperFauerby
- but I don't understand what people have so much against Thief 3?

Personally I really enjoyed Thief Deadly Shadows, but this C-A-D comic really nails it …

I was quite positively surprised by Thief: DS. After the major disappointment that was Deus Ex: IW (or its demo… never played the full game), I only paid half attention to Thief: DS and was expecting it to suck just as much. Then when I finally got around to picking up a bargain bin copy at just EUR 9.99, I really enjoyed it for the most part. The AI was a bit weak indeed and the city parts got old after a few missions when all you wanted was just to get quickly to the next mission but couldn't because you had to search for the mission entry point. That should've probably been optional/skippable (with a buy/sell option from the menu for those players who don't want to do the city stuff). But otherwise, the level design was pretty decent and the missions were pretty fun overall. For just EUR/$ 10 it's great value for sure.

Originally Posted by txa1265
Can someone tell me what the 'GOOD IDEAS' were in Deus Ex Invisible War that I missed … I thought it was a suck-fest resource pig of a crappy mediocre shooter from end to end. But aside from that I have no strong feelings on the subject

I second that!

I merely meant the fundamental concept was great: a sequel to one of the best games.. What could possibly go wrong? A team had total freedom of making their ideas come true (thats not very common in dev circles). Loads of cash, and they had Warren spector.

I don't know what they were smoking when they decided to water down everything which was great in the first game. How could they even think that lousy interface, smaller levels, universal ammo, discarding skills, augmentations which could be reversed (whats the point if you could just get rid off bad choises?!) were good ideas and improvements? And storyline. I never cared much what was happening in game.. It made me feel only pure frustration. Heck I don't even remember who were the leading characters. In dx1 you had walton simons, gunther herman, bob page….'

And what comes to thief 3.. I never gave it a shot. Do you think I should? I loved thief 1 and thief 2.

I thought deus ex 2 was great and I played it through. I think it was because I had no expectations for it due to everyone dumping it down. Somtimes it makes a difference.

Thief 3 was the only thief I played through. Loved the burned out orphanage. "Lobotomy theather" I doubt Ill ever forget that. I never played through thief 1 & 2 nor liked them that much because I was expecting them to be more like ultima underworld and I was greatly disappointed.

Originally Posted by Dez
And what comes to thief 3.. I never gave it a shot. Do you think I should? I loved thief 1 and thief 2.

Can't do much wrong there - the game is really cheap now. And you really cannot compare it with Invisible War in terms of disappointment. Thief 3 still pretty much feels like Thief whereas Invisible War had hardly anything to do with Deus Ex 1. Despite its minor flaws Thief 3 is still a good game.

Originally Posted by Corwin
Ultima 9, with a nod to M&M 9!! Must be something about the number 9, so watch out Wizardry!!

Where are the good ideas in Ultima IX?

Oh, and for the Thief-3-discussion: I hate it for its story, its controls, its dumbed down gameplay, its small levels, its plot, its story and its plot.

IMO pretty much every CRPG since BG 2 Shadows of Amn fell short - there are many with good Ideas, but I find mayor flaws in every single one of them

Originally Posted by Hindukönig
Where are the good ideas in Ultima IX?

Oh, and for the Thief-3-discussion: I hate it for its story, its controls, its dumbed down gameplay, its small levels, its plot, its story and its plot.

Well, finishing the trilogy with the Guardian was a good idea for a start!! It went downhill from there though!!!!

Kult - Heretic Kingdoms. I've never played it, but from what I've read, it contained some very cool ideas (for example switching from the "Reality" into another, different "Dimension" at the spot and the "attunement" thing with magic).

Originally Posted by Alrik Fassbauer
Kult - Heretic Kingdoms. I've never played it, but from what I've read, it contained some very cool ideas (for example switching from the "Reality" into another, different "Dimension" at the spot and the "attunement" thing with magic).

It is pretty good - the thing I liked about it was that it *didn't* fall short, because it didn't reach for the stars. It is a small scope game that does what it sets out to do. It has some good ideas, and things that could have been better, but it is a solid little game that I definitely recommend you try.

What was good about DX2? I liked the back story, the settings, some of the characterization, some of the plot, and some of the combat. I hated the consoled-up UI, the nerfed inventory, the lack of alternative solutions/paths, the constant pauses for loading, the dumbed-down character development and the performance issues.

By "dumbed-down character development" I don't mean the fact that they dropped the skills -- a skill-less system can work perfectly well. I meant the stupid replaceable nanomods: a big part of the greatness of DX was that your character development choices were irrevocable and mutually exclusive: make one set of choices and you end up with one kind of gameplay; make another set, and you end up with rather different gameplay. DX2 totally lost this, even though it could have been done perfectly well without any skill trees, simply by putting in more nanomods and making it impossible to change your mind once you've picked up one.

Cleric already beat me to my first choice: Mistmare. An awesome original concept that could have been fantastic - Gothic type of immersion, coupled with the horror thrill of S.T.A.L.K.E.R.

And secondly, Morrowind. I admit I spent hours playing the game and enjoyed it a lot. But when I first got it I had never played any ES games before. In fact, I was new to RPGs and had just finished GOTHIC, my first one. I bought Morrowind thinking I was going to get another game just like Gothic. Boy was I surprised! I couldn't believe at first that none of the dialogs were spoken!! LOL, after I got over the initial shock, I started to enjoy the game for what it was. Still, I had to mod the crap out of it just to get the atmospere "busy" enough to pass off as believable.