RPGWatch Feature - Expeditions: Conquistador First Impressions

The conquistadors, a very interesting subject.

Hernando Cortez - http://library.thinkquest.org/J002678F/cortez.htm

…referred to in Neil Young's 'Zuma' album track "Cortez the Killer" —>

"Hate was just a legend and war was never known, the people worked together and they lifted many stones, they carried them to the flat lands and they died along the way but they built up with their bare hands what we still can't do today"

..beautiful…the factual subject matter of the conquistadors is as deep and historically interesting as a game concept can be, as to how much of this will be transposed or interpreted into the game-play storyline, we will have to wait and see.
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This project will only be funded if at least $70,000 is pledged by Wednesday Sep 12, 5:25pm EDT.
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/…r/posts/286653

Originally Posted by GhanBuriGhan
Everybody always clamors they want to play the evil guy. Well, here is your chance to play a real evil.

Ah, but would the Spanish have considered themselves evil? I think not, since the colonization of South-America was (among other things) condoned and justified by the Catholic church. This is quite interesting from a roleplaying-perspecive, don't you think?

Asdraguuhl mentiones finger pointing by those who come from countries with a colonial past. My own nation has quite a sad history in that respect. I'm glad to live in a timeframe in which cultural values have shifted. So, while I don't condemn a game that lets me play a role such as this, I would label a lot of the historical Conquistadores' actions as 'Very Nasty'.

Originally Posted by Zerotown
So, while I don't condemn a game that lets me play a role such as this, I would label a lot of the historical Conquistadores' actions as 'Very Nasty'.

You could label most actions of the human race since the beginning of time as 'Very Nasty'.

Anyhow this game is doing well, just hit 60K!

Daniel.

Originally Posted by Zerotown
Ah, but would the Spanish have considered themselves evil? I think not, since the colonization of South-America was (among other things) condoned and justified by the Catholic church. This is quite interesting from a roleplaying-perspecive, don't you think?

Actually, regarding your comment about the condoning and justification of the colonisation, things are not that simple and black on white. Obviously, the Church was happy with the spread of religion but many representatives of the Church were in fact appalled by the treatment of the indigenous people as was the Spanish Crown. Many policies and rules imposed by the Spanish Crown were not necessarily followed by the Spanish rulers in the New World.

The Spanish friar Antonio de Montesinos severely criticised the colonists and their treatment of the natives and had an active role in imposing laws that would in principle improve their situation.

Also, a quick Google search leads to an article that states how Columbus and the first Spanish colonists did not see eye to eye with the Spanish Crown and the Catholic Church.

As you can see, things are actually quite complex. But you are right in saying that there are plenty of good role play opportunities in a game that were to include all these complex issues and shades of grey.

Originally Posted by Zerotown
Ah, but would the Spanish have considered themselves evil? I think not, since the colonization of South-America was (among other things) condoned and justified by the Catholic church. This is quite interesting from a roleplaying-perspecive, don't you think?

Exactly. I think in the real world what we consider evil is generally done by people who feel perfectly justified in their actions. Rarely will such acts be committed as deliberate evil, e.g. acting in willfull violation of a set of moral values that are actually accepted within the group committing the "evil". What happens is that a society (or a group within, or even an individual), generally reacting to historical dynamics or specific circumstances, shifts its own value system in such a way that it can justify such acts based on a perceived overriding need or justification.

Which would mean that evil is only suffered, but never commited…

Originally Posted by Asdraguuhl
My point is the following: During the 16th century, the native population was drastically reduced to a small percentage and when seeing the numbers, one would assume that the Spanish must have massacred all those people. The fact is that the main cause was the introduction of deseases to which the natives had no natural resistance.

In that case.. I want a tech tree that allows me to choose between smallpox, cholera, and syphilis.

Originally Posted by Asdraguuhl
No, I never said that. My point is the following: During the 16th century, the native population was drastically reduced to a small percentage and when seeing the numbers, one would assume that the Spanish must have massacred all those people. The fact is that the main cause was the introduction of deseases to which the natives had no natural resistance. Yet many believe it was due to an organised systematic extermination and are quite vocal about it. And your post contained a tone that seemed to support that believe hence my remark.

What bothers me is the ignorance in historical facts, finger pointing, and hypocrisy especially from those whose nation has a colonial past as well.

So you are reading into my tone massacres of people rather than wiping out civilizations, which I specifically wrote? Seems like you are purposely dodging the point I was very explicitly making. And then saying it is OK because other countries did the same thing? Rather childish reasoning there.

Originally Posted by Thrasher
And then saying it is OK because other countries did the same thing?

????????

Can you please point out exactly where I say this?

You're making excuses for the Spanish wiping out civilizations because other countries also were colonialists. Rather than making excuses, you should simply agree that what the Spanish did to the Inca and Mayan civilizations was a truly horribly evil and leave it at that.

Originally Posted by Asdraguuhl
For what purpose? To conquer is one thing, to wipe out is something else. You do know that the most destructive force with disastrous results was the introduction of foreign diseases by the Europeans such as small pox that literally decimated the entire native population of the Americas, right?

You do know this is a game and no real people will die ( hopefully). Right?

Just a game. Take a deep breath.

Well this part of the Euro expansion into the "new" world I find as one of the most heinous acts ever committed in the history of man. Destroying entire civilizations in the name of gold, God, and conquest. Sorry, my feathers get ruffled.

Originally Posted by Thrasher
You're making excuses for the Spanish wiping out civilizations because other countries also were colonialists. Rather than making excuses, you should simply agree that what the Spanish did to the Inca and Mayan civilizations was a truly horribly evil and leave it at that.

C'mon, you cannot point out any sentence of mine because I didn't say any of that of which you accuse me of.

Btw, The Mayan civilisation that you mention no longer existed when the Spanish arrived. The Mayans as people still existed but ther civilisation was well past their prime and were no longer the famous empire as they were eventually conquered by neighbouring tribes prior to the European colonial era.

Wow! You are still making excuses and revising history to make it look like Spain did not destroy the Mayan culture? Is this what they teach you Spain to try to absolve you of your sins?

Fact Check:

The Spanish conquest of Yucatán was the campaign undertaken by the Spanish conquistadores against the Late Postclassic Maya states and polities, particularly in the northern and central Yucatán Peninsula but also involving the Maya polities of the Guatemalan highlands region. This episode in the conquest and colonization of the Americas began in the early 16th century, but was a more difficult and lengthier exercise in subjugation than the equivalent campaigns against the Aztec and Inca Empires. It would take some 170 years and the help of the Xiu Maya before the last recognized Maya stronghold fell, that of the Itza capital of Tayasal on Lake Petén Itzá, in 1697. Following the great revolt of the seven Mayan provinces to the east, the authorisation of the Indian auxiliaries to enslave any Mayan rebels they managed to catch helped quell the resistance. Except for the Petén region and the Guatemalan highlands, Spanish control over Yucatán itself was effectively in place by 1547 even though as late as 1550, there were only some 1,550 Spanish in all of the colonial provinces.

from de wiki of infinite correctness…

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish…f_Yucat%C3%A1n

One of the dumber arguments I've seen here in awhile.

Originally Posted by Thrasher
Wow! You are still making excuses and revising history to make it look like Spain did not destroy the Mayan culture?

As I said, the Mayans still existed. But the great famous Mayan civilisation that we all know of did not. The two great civilisations during the colonial era were the Aztecs and Incas.

Originally Posted by Thrasher
Is this what they teach you Spain to try to absolve you of your sins?

I was born and raised in the Netherlands and got my education there.

So destroying a civilization that is broken into fragments already is not such a bad thing? Why else would you mention it? If not, what is your point?

Originally Posted by Thrasher
So destroying a civilization that is broken into fragments already is not such a bad thing?

Again, can you please point out where I explicitly say that that is NOT A BAD thing?

Originally Posted by Thrasher
Why else would you mention it? If not, what is your point?

When you mentioned the Mayans, I assumed that you were referring to the famous Mayan civilisation in which case I was merely trying to point out a historical inconsistency. Nothing more, nothing less.


I have simply been providing some historical data without accusing any party nor justifying anything in order to get a more balanced picture. But if it makes you happy, I shall gladly burn in hell for you for all eternity.

Originally Posted by sakichop
You do know this is a game and no real people will die ( hopefully). Right?

I fear that I do not entirely know what your point is. Would you please clarify?

Originally Posted by Thrasher
Wow! You are still making excuses and revising history to make it look like Spain did not destroy the Mayan culture? Is this what they teach you Spain to try to absolve you of your sins?

Fact Check:



from de wiki of infinite correctness…

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish…f_Yucat%C3%A1n

I certainly won't defend the actions of the Europeans in the New World, but let's face it, the Mayans, Aztecs and the rest would probably have done the same had the tables been turned. It's not like they built their empires on mutual respect and peace. The world has been a very, very nasty place since the beginning of time.

Originally Posted by blatantninja
I certainly won't defend the actions of the Europeans in the New World, but let's face it, the Mayans, Aztecs and the rest would probably have done the same had the tables been turned. It's not like they built their empires on mutual respect and peace. The world has been a very, very nasty place since the beginning of time.

Well said. That's the story of human race in the past 10000 years.
The Aztec have wipe and submitted all the cultures around them. The Incas and the Mayans were not only love and flowers.
I really can't see why playing from the Spanish side is playing from evil side.