Dragon Age Lead Writer Sick of BioWare Forums

Originally Posted by Riddam
These are the people Bioware has steered towards in their recent games. They had real fans once. This situation here is completely their own doing, you don't see people whining about Valve and their practices for a reason.

I see plenty of people complaining about Valve never releasing Episode 3 or Team Fortress having too many hats.

It's not that Bioware had real fans once, it's that they added a new crop of fans that clash with the old ones. Seems like the new crop is more lucrative too…

I don't think its the type of fans at all. Some RPG fans have been bad since after Fallout came out, and the comment about BG violating some sacred turn based rule was true. BG2 also got flack for not being isometric and not for being 3D by others if you remember. 3D was a favourite target since here the .dot days that I think has finally run its course. If anything, traditional RPG fans can be more acidic owing to the sense of entitlement as I pointed out.

Gorath, I'm not sure why you don't think this is deserved as the arrogance of the company, their unwillingness to accept criticism to the point of deleting paid accounts, and their deliberate attempts to court controversy for the purpose of sales, and on and on is all well documented. Heck, this back and forth we have here wouldn't be tolerated at their forums anymore whereas, back in the day, they were only stopped if they got out of hand. And Gaider himself is not just stooge hack at the company, he's been practically running things since Jade Empire.

And I'm not advocating sticking him in a straight jacket and putting tooth picks in front of his eyes to make him read it. I'm saying its a mess of their own making, and the end result of three serious game failures (DA2, ME3, SW:KotR) in a row allowing forum members to be brave enough to say what they really think.

Originally Posted by Lucky Day
The Bioware name can reinvent itself and then people will look fondly again on great games like MDK2.

MDK was invented by Shiny Entertainment, NOT by Bioware !

Originally Posted by rjshae
So much vociferous hatred of Bioware floating around. Fortunately I don't suffer from that particular meme. The problem for me is that the haters are also the loudest screamers, so it almost becomes pointless trying to hold a rational discussion on the topic. All I'd get in return is disparaging vitriol.

I agree. It's as if people were using developrs of ANY game-making company as their PERSONAL scapegoat for their PERSONAL frustration nowadays.

Originally Posted by Gorath
Unfortunately lots of Bioware devs got verbally attacked. I'm often surprised how many gamers still don't understand that specialist A probably had no influence on specialist-B-from-the-other-department's or on BigBoss C's decisions.

I fear that people do not WANT to see the difference.

They merely listen to their emotional state of anger, hatred, frustration and so on.

Originally Posted by CountChocula
Isn't this pretty much the same thing that happens every few years with every game franchise?

- Super Action RPG 2 is released
- People complain about how it is different from Super Action RPG 1, clearly a superior game
- 2 years pass and Super Action RPG 3 is released
- People complain about how it is different from Super Action RPG 2, clearly a superior game

- 2 more years pass and self-proclaimed "fans" begin to produce a clone of Super Action RPG 1
- The clone is ignored by the mass of players : no-one plays this clone except the makers + a few more
- 2 more years paas and other fans begin to poduce clones of Super Actiion RPG 2 & 3 as well
- both clones are ingnored by the mass as well, except for their few fans

for clarity, I said MDK2 not MDK. MDK is a forgotten classic.

and for the record, I believe these complainers are mainly just a bunch of ignorant slobs with nothing better to do. I do believe in valid criticism though. I also believe the in-valid criticism is also useful for different reasons, but it can be difficult to take.

I think the forums have gone so bad largely because they are run so bad. All forums have the tendency for decline: if the flamers get a free run, the quieter people get fed up and leave, which leaves more room for the whiners, which makes the situation increasingly worse. Finally only the trolls are left. The BSN board moderators are usually nowhere to be seen, but when they do get involved, they tend to over-react and have a bit of an attitude against the community they are supposedly serving. It breeds bad blood. It doesn't make it any better that Bioware does nowadays give the off the attitude that they are ignoring the opinions of their own customers, which makes them want to yell even louder.

The trolls remain behind - and wonder why no-one is listening to them.
Which makes them cry out even more trollish … err, louder …

What's left is the "hardcore crowd".


"TvTropes" has several pages about that phenomenon :

Perhaps the most important article for this context here :

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FanDumb

Fan Dumb is a number one contributing factor to both Artist Disillusionment and Fan Disillusionment.

The Strawstuffer: This fan might express what is a healthy amount of criticism… but ignores the chain of decay, middle management and all those who contribute to decision-making as an explanation to why things go poorly, instead preferring to focus their ire on an easily-named and recognized target regardless of what their involvement in this might have actually been. This target then becomes the subject of blame for all of the things that go wrong with the show, regardless of whether they can reasonably be blamed for it or not. Furthermore, any failings or missteps are subsequently treated not as human error or the kind of slip-ups that any creative may encounter from time to time, but evidence that their target is out to spite them personally (which can lead to some overlap with the Tinfoiler below). Abridged version

Further articles from there :

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph…ltureIsolation

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph…ernetBackdraft

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FanHater
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Hatedom
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph…/OpinionMyopia

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BrokenBase
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph…easableFanbase
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph…/RuinedForever
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph…edItNowItSucks
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FandomHeresy

I think another thing that doesn't help is when people are complaining and "the company" responds to complaints with arrogant answers. A lot of times they have a dismissive attitude towards their fans, which turns the conversation into a frustrating game of "I need to clarify my question…".

Someone said earlier that the devs are people too - well then they should act like it and stop expecting people to bow down and praise them. You come into a forum thread criticizing something, don't expect to get kudos and pats on the back - especially if you are posting patronizing responses; or give off the impression that you think your word is the word of the gods, and expect no challenge. "Fans" are fans of the game - not the person who worked on the game (you wanted to be recognized as a person - so now you got what you wanted).

The fact is, people have always, and will always complain. You can't stop that. If you start trying to suppress them, well there are thousands of places they can go, grow into a massive crowd, and STILL effect your sales. Stopping them on your site has virtually no effect.

If they cannot take it, they don't need to respond - but any company with a lick of sense would at least bean-count the negative responses verses the positive, and use that FREE quality assurance data to make the next product better (or better yet, make a patch for the current one that fixes the crappy aspects).

The written word remains an imperfect medium for communicating attitude or intent. One should be careful about interpreting such meaning on a forum. Anonymous "fans" who feel entitled can be arrogant and rude, so one shouldn't necessarily expect kindness and humility in return.

Right. I agree. Interpretation is always a difficult thing - especially across language borders.

Sometimes I want to tell Bioware devs "QQ moar".

FFS, suck it up. Grow up. Also, shut up?

They aren't any mature or better than those so-called trolls on Bioware forum if they react that way.