D:OS has soured me on Kickstarter stretch goals

Originally Posted by ilm
Of ks. In the sense that you have to be careful, trust the Dev, good pitch, etc. Considering that. I'm surprised you find so many good ones to back

Well, I haven't backed that many pure crowdfunded titles yet - because I've been waiting for results.

But, after games like D:OS - that's going to change.

I've made a lot of mistakes too, and I should probably not have backed Elite, for instance. I don't really know what I was thinking, except that I love the genre.

But Star Citizen is something I'm almost proud to be a part of

Most of my "pledging" has been with Early Access - like it was with Wasteland 2 and D:OS. They were far enough along that I trusted I'd be getting something reasonably close to what they were promising.

Turns out Wasteland 2 isn't really what I was hoping for.

But what the hell, if I'm not wasting my money on that - I'm wasting it on something else.

Also, I'll do what I can manage to combat the horror of the publisher model.

If they give me all my money back except for the cost of the game, I'll forgive them for lying on the kickstarter. I still will never back them again, except at release. The mega dungeon was left out and they have ZERO excuse for that. All assets are already in the game, just give us a 20 level NWN-like monster dungeon instead of the million itty bitty two room dungeons with tons of corridors that are empty. I'm not sure why there are so many apologists for this game, guess because it's European and in Hidden's case he wasted so much money on it, he's in denial

It's a good game, so people excuse the bad business practice of delivering half of what was promised.

Swen actually offered refunds to the CE backers when the dice got cut. If I knew then what I do now, I would have taken him up on that offer. But I reasoned, "Oh, it's *just* the dice…"

Contrary to you crpgnut I have not overplayed the beta and alpha version and I'm having a blast with the release version.
Maybe you should finally play the release version, because there are not many 2 room dungeons and empty corridors in the game anymore.
I'm already planning a second playthrough…

Originally Posted by crpgnut
give us a 20 level NWN-like

I payed not to see anything from NWN in this game.
If I see anything from NWN here, I want my money back. ALL OF IT.
I don't want NWN nor anything similar to it on my PC. Never ever again.

Originally Posted by HiddenX
Contrary to you crpgnut I have not overplayed the beta and alpha version and I'm having a blast with the release version.

Me too.

Originally Posted by HiddenX
And I'm on the Codex side this time.

I'm not. I'm on my own side.
I wanted a good RPG. I got an amazing RPG instead. I can understand people who don't want an amazing RPG but a mediocre game with stuff that's completely irrelevant to me. All I ask is that those people try to understand me.

I think you can both praise D:OS as a great RPG and complain about missing stretch goals. It's not either or.

Originally Posted by Morrandir
I think you can both praise D:OS as a great RPG and complain about missing stretch goals. It's not either or.

We could, but for Larian it was this dilemma:

1. Make a big good CRPG until summer 2014 (cut some stretch goals) (with no other big CRPG on the market)
2. Make a smaller cut down mediocre CRPG with all stretch goals only technically implemented (*) until summer/autumn 2014 (fighting against Risen 3, etc.)
3. Develop until everything is ready until 2015 -> this was not an option after all I've heard (no money left)

so it was 1) or 2) for them, they opted for 1) -> I applaud them.

(*) technically implemented:
Day/night cycles could be implemented for example as just another weather with not much meaning to other gameplay mechanics.

Originally Posted by HiddenX
Contrary to you crpgnut I have not overplayed the beta and alpha version and I'm having a blast with the release version.
Maybe you should finally play the release version, because there are not many 2 room dungeons and empty corridors in the game anymore.
I'm already planning a second playthrough…

I totally agree that some of my opinion is burnout. I was pretty disappointed about the lack of a mega-dungeon though. That was a big sell for me as I love a long dungeon crawl. Another negative for me as a beta-tester is that they took some stuff out of the game that I really enjoyed. If I hadn't played the beta, I would have never known about those things.

I'm playing Icewind Dale right now, to get my dungeon combat itch scratched and then I will head back into D:OS.

Appareantly Larian didn't manage to implement the coop dialog properly.

I hadn't intended to play coop, so I din't follow these features properly, but wasn't this coop thing one of the main features and kind of a unique selling point?
If I wanted to play coop, I'd be really pissed now. So I'm not, but this adds to my opinion that they rushed it in the end.

Dunno anything about coop dialog, I avoid MMOing like a plague and play singleplayer only.

But the game was definelty developed with coop in mind. For example to deal with the frost king if you play just by yourself you should simulate coop. If you don't do that, expect a superhard fight, perhaps harder than any other in the game.

Anyway, I disagree. The coop integration in the game was not rushed.

If it wasn't rushed, then it wasn't properly thought through.

I tend to view Kickstarters as a slight gamble in general so even though I increased my pledge partly because of the stretch goals but also because I simply wanted to support Larian and what they were doing I didn't see it as a guarantee. In the end it comes down to how we view kickstarters and what we expect from them. In the end I acknowledge the gamble involved and often it comes down to me choosing to support a developer because I like what they are trying to do and I choose my pledge size based on how much of a gamble it appears to be. Obviously others see it as promise and that is fair enough but I would suggest many will be disappointed if they view all kickstarters in that way.

The only minor drawback for me is if all of these stretch goals are fulfilled down the line. While it will overall be a good thing it will essentially mean I have been playing D:OS as an extended early access. That is annoying because I specifically do not play any early access games. I want to play the finished product as it is intended by the developers. Now I'm not including stuff like add-ons and so on but gameplay changers like npc day/night cycles, extra npcs and so on mean I wasn't playing the game as originally intended. Not a big problem in the grand scheme of things because I do often replay games but a pity that in the end I was only playing an 80% finished product.

I understand the idea of advertising in digital entertainment, but I'd rather not have the reasonable goals interlaced with hollow promises. I'm ok with TV ads that promise if I shell out the bucks for this washing powder on a regular basis it's bound to change my life, but somehow I just… expect better from a kickstarter project. For three reasons, possiby:

1) In this niche of digital entertainment I expect to deal with… if not intellectuals, at least fellow nerds. People who, I assume, don't pepper their personal Ebay ads with claims of how that rusty garden chair is going to clean your kitchen and make you look 20 years younger as well.

2) By and large I consider video games to be an art form. While I admit this also goes hand in hand with creative freedom, the question of how honest you go about collecting money is still important. If I have a picture painted to my specifications, I won't be pleased if instead of a lonely mountaintop as requested I'm handed a depiction of the Cornish coast because the artist had to spend more money on brushes than thought and painting seasides somehow proved cheaper. OTOH, if I throw my money at an up-and-coming artist with no more than the promise of producing a painting at some point in the future, that's fine too. You just have to be clear about it.

3) I support kickstarters because I feel like supporting the creators directly rather than their publishers or the really big players. For that courtesy I demand some honesty that I wouldn't expect from, say, EA.

Sacred_Path - you and I - we even supported Grimoire, just sayin'

For me crowd funding is simple:
If I trust a developer to make a good game I give him money.

I trusted Swen to make a good game and he delivered. (In my opinion it's even better than expected: so many little things are very well implemented in this game and I didn't expect a 120 hour game as well)

I don't look at mini stretch goals, I always look at the great concept. The great concept was: An Ultima 7/ Baldur's Gate inspired game with turn based combat (Fallout style) and good old Divinity lore and humor thrown in. Extra: Game-editor.

The great concept D:OS is well implemented and nicely done.

Larian will get money from me for the next CRPG again, if the concept is good, too.

If some of you feel betrayed, I suggest to play the game first. If you're still disappointed write to Larian. Maybe they add the Mega-Dungeon later as a free DLC.

Originally Posted by HiddenX
Sacred_Path - you and I - we even supported Grimoire, just sayin'

Exactly. And everyone knew/ knows that Cleve is a nut who may never finish his game. That's cool. Well… not really, but anyways. Ttbomk Cleve never promised to include a feature but then didn't even though he collected enough money.

If some of you feel betrayed, I suggest to play the game first. If you're still disappointed write to Larian. Maybe they add the Mega-Dungeon later as a free DLC.

If they stopped patching the game now I'd play it and moan. But since the patching effort seems to be going on… I'll just wait. BTW I'm more bothered by balance issues than by day/ night cycles.

BTW:
I'm already started again with my second party: Ranger + Witch on hard difficulty

Hidden you bastard I wanted that starting combo for the replay! :mad:


Okay, I'll combine something else, dunno what yet, possibilities are endless.

You can play together. Coop remember. Joker, you can be the witch

No we can't. I don't MMO outside of MOBA genre. Sorry.