D:OS has soured me on Kickstarter stretch goals

HiddenX isn't that massive :-)

Before joxer and I can play together, Larian has to implement the difficulty level
<ultra smokin' oldschool hardcore> - everything else is way too easy for us together

I think that would be the Dual Lone Wolf on Hard w/out crafting or chest reloads difficulty option.

I never reload any chests in any game - that's cheating for me.

Originally Posted by HiddenX
I never reload any chests in any game - that's cheating for me.

It is totally cheating, but it's soooo damn tempting. I set myself a rule that I would only reload up to 3 times, or until I get anything that's an upgrade for any character, whatever comes first

I could never just sit there and reload over and over. Too boring for me.

I can however reroll my characters in BG or wizardry about a thousand times and never get bored.

Go figure.

I am wondering since they are still adding stuff to the game, what makes you guys think they wont add these things in the future?

I'm in all honesty quite baffled by this thread.

If we (humans) were able to properly estimate the time and resources needed for a given project our world would be very different:

• When you need a repair man to come by your house the estimated time of arrival wouldn't be between 8 and 16, it would be 12:15 sharp.
• Construction work would be finished on time, not weeks or moths after the announced times on the road signs.
• Building projects wouldn't end up costing 2-3 times the estimated amount and take twice as long to get done.
• insert countless other examples here …

…. and in our area: Games wouldn't be delayed left and right and when it was released it wouldn't feel rushed.

However, this is obviously NOT the case. If it was, there would be no need for Kickstarter in the first place.

Every time a game is delayed it means that the developers have made an arrangement for additional funding, usually with the publisher (this of course doesn't apply to self-funding companies like Blizzard or CD Project Red) … and every time a game is released in an unfinished state it means that

1. a) they didn't manage to get additional funding.
2. b) they didn't manage to meet the final unmoveable deadline.

I know a lot of the RPGWatch regulars are convinced that publishers are manifestations of the Antichrist but beneath the surface it is just "business as usual". While a game is in development it generates zero income, yet all the bills still need to be paid (salary, rent, etc), so funding is required, hence the publisher who invests money in the game based on an assumption that the finished project will generate enough income to make the investment profitable. Very simple, not that difficult to understand. If the developers are having difficulties meeting the deadlines for any number of different (valid or not) reasons, then the investment is in jeopardy and action is needed. Sometimes they still believe in the project and additional time/money is provided. Sometimes they don't and the developers are reminded that they made an agreement they must honour. Ideal circumstances for the game and the gamers? Not really, but that's how capitalism works.

Along comes Kickstarter and the whole crowd funding wave and a new age in gaming has seemingly begun … but nothing has changed behind the scenes. Developers have not suddenly developed the ability to accurately estimate the time and resources needed to finish their projects. Many of the Kickstarter campaigns I've followed and backed have clearly been taken by surprise by the amount of backers they got so when it came to stretch goals they pretty much made them up on the spot (I know, bad idea), making it even more likely that the estimation will hold water.

What's more, unless they have additional crowd funding sources like Star Citizen does, then it will be very difficult to ask for additional funding when (not if) they run out of time/money because they were too ambitious to begin with.

And then we're back with the D:OS situation: "We've run out of time/resources, so do we release a good game and skip the "irrelevant" (to the core gaming experience) extras or do we deliver all content in a rushed and unfinished state" … It would have been ideal not to have to make this choice but apparently it was and in my opinion they made the right choice.


Perhaps the main issue is that people tend to confuse Kickstarter for being a pre-order site rather than a site where you can invest in an idea/concept that you find appealing … including all the risks that is normally associated with investments.

Welcome to the world of publishing. Now see how you like it … no wait, obviously you DON'T like it

You might want to keep that in mind next time you scream and rant about some publisher "mistreating" you current lovechild game

Originally Posted by Drithius
I think that would be the Dual Lone Wolf on Hard w/out crafting or chest reloads difficulty option.

There is no real use on reloading chests except perhaps the one in your base that is 5th after finding other four. It generates at least two level 20 legendary items.
Since you'll have a crapload of cash in the game anyway, you can always buy legendary items from NPCs (Jake the zombie, Rat King, etc) without wasting your time on reloading anything anywhere.

But… Since that chest granted me superpowered 2-handed tenebrium weapon on the first open, I didn't reload that one either.

Originally Posted by Damian
I am wondering since they are still adding stuff to the game, what makes you guys think they wont add these things in the future?

If you ask me, I'd want handplaced items in at least hard to find chests and spell stores. It is possible you never find a spellbook or a spellscroll because they appear randomly.
Also, keys should IMO be moved into the journal, not treated as items.

New NPCs and stuff? Bah. The game is awsome even without them.

Originally Posted by fatBastard()
**STUFF THAT MADE SENSE**

I agree with much of what you're saying here.

I don't think of publishers as the anti-christ at all. I simply believe it's better for the game to sell it directly to the audience, instead of having to sell a manipulated idea to the publisher first and then have it changed to fit some vision of what the suits think will sell better.

The stretch goals and the way of involving the audience in the process is something of a two-edged sword, from where I'm sitting.

While I do believe the audience knows itself better than a suit knows it, that's not always the case.

Also, I think the best way of developing any piece of art is to have a strong vision that guides everything. Obviously, feedback is important and often useful - but the vision is the thing.

The sad reality is that most of the audience does NOT understand game design, and they do NOT understand the difference between short-term satisfaction and long-term satisfaction.

Which is why I'd rather not have the audience involved at all, but I guess that's one of the selling points of crowd-funding, and it needs to be there on some level.

Originally Posted by fatBastard()
Perhaps the main issue is that people tend to confuse Kickstarter for being a pre-order site rather than a site where you can invest in an idea/concept that you find appealing … including all the risks that is normally associated with investments

It's obviously not an investment as no one is in for any dividends. Everyone who pledges wants to see some immaterial goal achieved, even if it's just the continued survival of a developer you've come to like so you can enjoy their products in your spare time in the future as well. The 'goals' of a kickstarter are clearly defined, for a reason - for someone to make an 'investment' there, one bullet point might be more or just as important as the overall goal (to have the game released). Someone who's tired of traditional fantasy RPG's might have had reason to skip Pillars of Eternity; but if he just loves stronghold management in an RPG, he might have put up more money than usual just to help them reach that stretch goal.

A crowdfunding investment platform doesn't exist. Yet.
Sooner or later it'll happen.

But till it does, people have to treat KS as a sort of a charity. You do get something back as a token of appreciation. But other than that, don't expect "royalties".

Kickstarter isn't a charity.

If someone just needs an excuse to simply throw money at people, let them do that. Man's will is his paradise. But a mindset like "what did you expect lolol" is just silly.