PC Gamer - Misogyny & Video Gamers

Originally Posted by DArtagnan
Why? Because gender is relevant to everyone and we're all directly affected. Those who feel discriminated against, those who're discriminated against, those who discriminate without intent and those who discriminate with intent. It's all but impossible not to belong to one of those groups.

Thank you very much for this … I really don't have anything to add, but considering how often people complain about your contribution, I felt the need to applaud what I really considered an excellent and thoughtful post

Avatars are not everyone. They are not people. Or they are only people to players who want to be represented in stories.

For gamers, gender is irrelevant for an avatar.

Originally Posted by ChienAboyeur
For gamers, gender is irrelevant for an avatar.

Why is games other than Tomb Raider with a female protagonist are equally plentiful and sell so well … oh wait, they don't.

You hear it here all the time - many guys have a problem playing a female character. It is easy enough to diagnose, really … but that doesn't make it less true.

Originally Posted by txa1265
You hear it here all the time - many guys have a problem playing a female character. It is easy enough to diagnose, really … but that doesn't make it less true.

That seems true, based on what I've read of forum posts before.

I enjoy playing a female character at times. It really doesn't matter too much to me. I would prefer a male, simply so I can pretend that it's really me in the game, but a female is fine, too.

One instance where I thoroughly enjoyed playing a female was Sacred 2. The Seraphim race were all females and extremely badass, so I enjoyed that a lot. It just depends on the game and how it's executed.

We had a poll about this:

http://www.rpgwatch.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3340

Will you play a game that restricts you to playing the opposite gender?

Yes 381 87.39%
No 55 12.61%

Originally Posted by txa1265
Why is games other than Tomb Raider with a female protagonist are equally plentiful and sell so well … oh wait, they don't.

You hear it here all the time - many guys have a problem playing a female character. It is easy enough to diagnose, really … but that doesn't make it less true.

Which kind of games, which kind of players?

Players who play for the gameplay (gamers) play with any kind of avatars, as long as the gameplay is satisfying.

Players who play for story want to be represented in the game. They want to be in the game.

Checking the past of video games, when games were much more about gameplay and often not about story at all, players played with all kinds of avatars.
This is with the increasing place of story (and the associated representation that goes) that avatars turn out conflictual.

Players wanted games to be conduit for story, they got problems associated with story as story is always about representation.

Originally Posted by ChienAboyeur
Players who play for story want to be represented in the game. They want to be in the game.

Nah, that would just be the self-insertionists, horrible people. Great stories can't be written while the protagonist is a blank sheath.

Originally Posted by ChienAboyeur
Which kind of games, which kind of players?

In games like Metroid it really didn't matter the gender, but with No One Lives Forever you were clearly playing a female.

And let's be very clear - NOLF 1&2 are two of the best shooters ever made, from mechanics to design to narrative and so on … yet they were overlooked in sales in spite of getting 90+ reviews everywhere and constantly coming up in 'best games you aren't playing' articles …

Mass Effect, a multi-million copy seller for each iteration, has collected statistics and only 18% of gamers chose female Shepherd. I have played as both genders, and found the writing actually did a good job of handling it.

And the reality is there are so few female-centric action, shooter and RPG games that the data set is so small we can't begin to speak definitively on what any of this means, if anything.

Speaking personally, I don't specifically remember when I started choosing to play females equally to males, but one reason was to test writing - Arcanum has loads of problems for female players where things are just not handled correctly. They are just not finished, so you get called Sir or 'he' and so on … and there is other stuff I can't remember. Vampire Bloodlines is better but not without mistake. KotOR is definitely solid in that regard. Most action games (Jedi Academy comes to mind) it really doesn't matter).

Originally Posted by txa1265
Why is games other than Tomb Raider with a female protagonist are equally plentiful and sell so well … oh wait, they don't.

You hear it here all the time - many guys have a problem playing a female character. It is easy enough to diagnose, really … but that doesn't make it less true.

Guys don't like to play female characters so they don't buy games which only has female characters.

So why aren't girls not buying "best shooters" games like (NOLF 1&2) which has female characters?

Originally Posted by lostforever
So why aren't girls not buying "best shooters" games like (NOLF 1&2) which has female characters?

Because we think the gameplay and genre suck?

Originally Posted by Wisdom
Because we think the gameplay and genre suck?

So are you saying that most girls/women don't like FPS?

Originally Posted by txa1265
Why is games other than Tomb Raider with a female protagonist are equally plentiful and sell so well … oh wait, they don't.

You hear it here all the time - many guys have a problem playing a female character. It is easy enough to diagnose, really … but that doesn't make it less true.

Why exactly is that easy to diagnose? That statement seems just as naive and presumptuous as the opposing stereotype.

Some people view gender as some silver bullet in a game. "I can't play my gender choice so I'm basing my entire attitude towards the game on that fact."

Pull off gameplay, a good story, and some mechanics and intrigue to keep us going further. . The gender won't matter. Start throwing BS romances, love stories, and crap sex scenes… Then yes, gender choice will matter.

Originally Posted by DArtagnan
Well, they say you should never discuss politics or religion. Of course I don't agree - but I ALMOST think discussing gender discrimination is more prone to useless or harmful exchange than the other two.

Why? Because gender is relevant to everyone and we're all directly affected. Those who feel discriminated against, those who're discriminated against, those who discriminate without intent and those who discriminate with intent. It's all but impossible not to belong to one of those groups.

One, very basic, misconception is that discrimination exists because people FEEL discriminated against. Another basic misconception is that when you actually do discriminate, it's always with intent.

Those two are at the heart of almost every thread I've witnessed about discrimination, and I honestly don't see a good way around it.

It's like blood feuds, I suppose. Revenge is cyclical and suicidal in a way. Same goes for the hatred of gender.

If you've seen The Godfather - you should remember the difference between how Vito Corleone handled revenge and how Michael Corleone handled revenge.

Very true. I hear a lot of people saying they are discriminated against because they don't feel included. Sorry, this is modern america not a 12th century village where everyone knows each other.

I don't hope anyone is suggesting that because you don't enjoy playing members of the opposite sex, that's some kind of discrimination. Because that makes no sense at all.

Originally Posted by DArtagnan
I don't hope anyone is suggesting that because you don't enjoy playing members of the opposite sex, that's some kind of discrimination. Because that makes no sense at all.

Agreed - but when someone says 'gender doesn't matter' in video games … that is simply isn't true. The fact that most males simply won't buy a game where they play as a female, and won't play as one in a game where it is a choice, doesn't necessarily mean anything about their opinions or treatment of women in real life.

But that doesn't indicate that as a vast and overwhelming trend it is without meaning, either. That meaning could be simple and shallow, or deep and complex, and I think it varies from person to person.

Originally Posted by txa1265
Agreed - but when someone says 'gender doesn't matter' in video games … that is simply isn't true. The fact that most males simply won't buy a game where they play as a female, and won't play as one in a game where it is a choice, doesn't necessarily mean anything about their opinions or treatment of women in real life.

But that doesn't indicate that as a vast and overwhelming trend it is without meaning, either. That meaning could be simple and shallow, or deep and complex, and I think it varies from person to person.

Of course it has meaning, but why are you exchanging with Chien? He's not of this world

It would be like debating how to make a really great pizza with a cat

Originally Posted by txa1265
The fact that most males simply won't buy a game where they play as a female, and won't play as one in a game where it is a choice

Somehow I doubt that having to play as Lara Croft stopped most guys from purchasing Tomb Raider games.

I completely agree with the second part of that statement though, and I think it's completely natural. I'm pretty sure it works in the other direction as well.

Originally Posted by JDR13
Somehow I doubt that having to play as Lara Croft stopped most guys from purchasing Tomb Raider games.

I already noted that … but it is an anomaly, the exception that proves the rule, etc …

Originally Posted by JDR13
I'm pretty sure it works in the other direction as well.

Really? If a male wants to play a FPS or RPG, there are loads of options available and the majority of them (like my faves Gothic & Risen) exist in a male-centric world, so being a male in that environment is simple enough. If a woman wants to play, she has signed up to play games as a man, in a world where women are 'eye candy'.

I don't know how true this is but someone said in one of the posts above that most women don't like to play FPS since they don't like the game play and genre. Given this, the majority of the audience for FPS are men and they don't like to play as female characters. So why are we expecting FPS to have female characters?

Really? If a male wants to play a FPS or RPG, there are loads of options available and the majority of them (like my faves Gothic & Risen) exist in a male-centric world, so being a male in that environment is simple enough. If a woman wants to play, she has signed up to play games as a man, in a world where women are 'eye candy'.

In what world are women not eye candy?

They can be other things in gaming and other places, but if you think men don't enjoy looking at beautiful women - you're being silly.

Yes, the industry was created by men, it's largely run by men - and gamers are mostly men.

Why would anyone expect a fair division in that scenario? Do you think that activities that are largely dominated by the female sex is any different?

If you confuse natural division based on how things evolve with intentional discrimination, you're being silly.

Are some men sexist? You bet - and that's unfortunate. But it's pretty important not to confuse the few with the many when there's a reason things are uneven that doesn't necessarily have anything to do with discrimination.

What JDR meant by it working in the other direction, is that there are women who prefer to play women. The fact that they don't have that choice as often has nothing to do with that preference not being there.

If women want to be a part of this industry and culture, they have to take a stand. You can't expect the vast majority to go out of their way to allow people who used to dismiss it as "for nerds" into their fold.

You must understand that it takes resources to adapt games to both genders and to research what appeals to both - and it takes both sexes to understand that well enough.

These things don't happen over night, and while I - personally - think it would be nice if EVERYONE was extra understanding and inviting, it's completely natural to have ~90% men have an obvious effect on games they're making for ~90% men.

To simply dismiss the omission of that extra and quite significant effort as discrimination is ignorance on a high level.