Thoughts/discussion/first impressions of Pillars of Eternity!

Originally Posted by Kostas
What about the general consensus? There's still too much white noise to get a quick understanding of where it ranks among either Obsidian's other titles or RPGs in general.

You can't really get much of a consensus about story, as people respond so differently to it.

I've heard several people call it standard, too serious and rather dull - and I've heard several people call it mature, interesting and deep. You can check out Metacritic for a quick run-down.

Personally, I've played about 20 hours of it - and I think it's interesting, if not amazing.

I really like the serious tone - but I'm not a huge fan of the whole oh-so-mysterious thing that I'm sure Avellone has something to do with. It's pretending to be Tolkien - but we all know what level of work is involved with creating that kind of world, so there's no way all the background stuff has much underpinning. As such, it comes off somewhat desperate to be taken seriously.

Not sure how else to explain it, but that's my take. It's sort of like a fantasy version of New Vegas in tone and style.

But it's definitely above average for a modern RPG. I like it more than Bioware stories, so far.

Based on writing alone, I'd probably rate it 7/10 right now - and something like DA:I or ME would get 6/10.

Originally Posted by DArtagnan
Not sure how else to explain it, but that's my take. It's sort of like a fantasy version of New Vegas in tone and style.

This I would agree with. I was thinking the same thing myself. I'd happily compare it to New Vegas, but I personally think Pillars comes off as slightly darker/more gothic. That's just my take. ^.^

I forgot to mention that I'm talking about the main quest and the background lore, specifically. The sidequests often have better writing, in my opinion, and I really enjoy the verisimilitude and grey area stuff. A lot of the sidequests are ~8-9/10 writing - from where I'm sitting.

The main quest story is spread very so thin in act 1, it's too early for me to say. I do like twists in the side quests.

The story isn't bad, but it isn't fantastic either.

Someone over at Obsidian (Sawyer or Avellone I suspect, maybe both) has a habit of always involving religion/faith, which is getting a bit tedious. MotB and KotOR2 both heavily involved such elements despite the fact that the settings in question are pretty much set in stone. That reminds me of certain people I know who manage to introduce specific topics they're passionate about into just about every discussion (for example a discussion about cars suddenly leads to ".. so how about politician A or B eh?").

@maylander: I think they feel edgy if they add religion to everything. It's just like Gaider and adding non-hetero to everything he touches. Boring to me, but "edgy" to them. I don't care who you screw or what being you bow down to…If I write a game there will be a grumpy old dude as the main companion every time

Originally Posted by crpgnut
If I write a game there will be a grumpy old dude as the main companion every time

That would be a fresh companion to see!

I think there should have been more companions in the game, personally, but it's a matter of taste. I'm sure Obsidian went for the meatier, more heavily-invested but smaller amount of companions, rather than quantity but less detailed approach. Just a random thought.

I hope the expansion/sequel has double the amount of companions, so we can really get creative with our party!

I finished and quite enjoyed the story throughout. It gets really good at the end when they piece together all your memories into an understandable layout and you figure out why you're linked to Thaos. Very nice kick to the story just before you bring things to a close. Can't wait for the expansion now.

Still not very far into the game…Just found Azarhal's name on the tombstones in the catacombs of Defiance Bay

Over.

All in all, they managed to deliver that big feeling of grand adventure that might be expected.

• Story: no comments. Big new universe, lots of material to support the introduction. Might be better to get used to the universe before starting. Did not bother to read the material so most of the story, the references were lost. I ended killing people as I could not make sense of anything.
  Minor detail: apparently, the voice actors read their texts without the contextual insertions displayed on screen. Most of the times, there is no pause to allow to read contextual insertions. When it is only one sentence, catching up on the voiced text is possible. When five or six sentences are in between, there's too many of them. Always that impression of disync.
  
• Combat: New ideas hard to assess as the interface is lacking. The metagame seems monolothic without any variation (take information, plan ahead by comparing capacity of engagement and number of enemy, apply plan) There is a huge variety of plans to craft though.
  There seems to be various issues with the stats system in general as many values are capped etc
  
• A lack of homogeneity between various features. Two massive pieces: the citadel and its underground, the rest of the game.
  The articulation between the two parts is artificial. The main contribution to the main campaign from the citadel is the money revenue. The citadel could be completed without interacting with the rest of the map, on the other hand.
  Events might happen at the citadel without giving the player a way to solve them (for example, the party travels from place to place, during travel, an event triggered and solved itself etc)
  
  Crafting, among other things, comes out of nowhere: crafting is essential in higher difficulty but looks as a disintegrated feature, the whole enchanting thing is alien etc
  

I'll just point out that in fact, I don't think you can complete the Endless path without going with the main storyline at least for a bit, since at a certain point in the stronghold dungeon you need an ability that you can only gain during the main quest. (But it's a minor thing).

My own couple of cents on PoE so far (for the record, I'm playing on Normal difficulty with a Cleric and I am quite at the end, if I could only defeat that accursed thing at the bottom. And I have that main quest to mop up).

- Main Quest - it's technically, quite meh, but I do kinda like the theme of it. Yeah, someone over there in Obs HQ is fond of the whole Gods/religion/faith thing, but in Pillars I'm seeing something very different from their previous effort on the theme in MotB. It also scores bonus points for being different enough from majority of RPGs.

- World building - On a general level, Eora sounds like an interesting place. On the other hand, that part of the world that this game takes place in, is pretty far from those interesting places. So there's that. There's also the nagging feeling that while everything seems different enough from the "golden standard" of DnD, that's just for the bulletpoint of it, not because it was the way they (the devs) wanted it to be. (Definately not helping this matter is that most other game systems seem very derivative of DnD 4th edition, or at least my basic non-understating of it). Overall, it feels as if too much information is thrown at us, but in the end none of it matters that much or has anything to do with the main story or even most of the side quests.

- Character creation, development - I like that there's pretty good customization options, though there could always be more portraits (like there aren't enough for the different race combinations, there's like a single portrait for each of the godlikes). Char development is decent enough, though I'm not sure there's enough options to differentiate characters from the same class - Most of my game, I had 2 clerics (my own PC and Durance, the NPC) but since this class mechanics are such (there's not spell selection - it's like a cleric-based DnD sorcerer), they were pretty much the same character. The main difference was the equipment (and like a different bonus feat based on the deities). This is bullshit, really. The other main thing that's there for this purpose, feat selection, is also bullshit, since I find very few of the feats available useful. That goes for the whole party, there were very few good feats to choose from, not to mention that everything that's there is there from the starts, there aren't really any more "powerful" feats to aspire to. Also a huge no-no - I hit the lvl cap at around the start of Act 3 (Twin Elms) and I had outstanging side quests at the time and had not started the Endless Path dungeon beneat the stronghold. That leaves like half the game where I lost all sence of progression for the characters. For a game where grinding is impossible and the only major XP source is quest completion, this should have just not happened. You can't even use the extra XP from all this to level up all the NPCs to the cap, since they seemingly auto-level with the PC (not sure this is exactly so, but it sure looks that way). While the small XP bonuses for exploration and the bestiary and even locks and traps give a good sence of accomplishment, that's all down the drain the moment one spends half the game not gaining anymore levels, I mean we all play for the XP but since we're capped, why is it there in the first place? This feels more like a punishment for exploring and doing everything, rather than rewarding. As for the classes themselves - the general theme of being copied over from DnD but changed enough to be different for the sake of it is still strong.

Party characters - I quite like them. At the very least, the current cast is not the most interesting party in the worlds, but at least they're not the most cliche either. I do believe that at some point Obs were advertising more companions, like one from each chass, but they didn't deliver at this point, so they lose a couple of metaphorical points for this.

Quests, Gameworld - Ok for the most part. I would even venture to say that Defiance Bay was almost as fun as Athkatla, with all the running around doing stuff all over the place. Almost, because even though I clearly remember being advertised in the same scope, it fall quite short of it. Between the 2 big cities, they barely make 1 Athkatla. I would also have like more reactivity to my own character. While I'm sure there's plenty of options for the different race/class/background combinations, I can say that at places I was expecting at least some king of a nod to my PC, the game failed to deliver any. The biggest example of this was in the Temple of Wael in the Copperlane - Not one character in there recognized me as a Cleric of Wael in any of the conversations there. Though I did like how that one character recognized my slaughtering of everyone there. In general, the game world recognized my actions, which is a good thing. There are some bizzare things going on with this reputations thing, which is not particularly clear from in-game, such as why would something I do in place X, would have such a drastic reaction from place Y. (Yeah, I was playing with all the normally hidden stuff turned visible.). Some other food for though - While I generally liked how the game doesn't present clear cut, black/white choises, and therefore gives ample opportunities for choosing a role, and generally sticking to it, I didn't quite like that sometimes the options presented were black/blacker. For example, in the early quest of choosing between the Lord and what's his name, neither seems like a viable option, at least to me.

Mobs - Again, I run into the some of the same points as before - they seem different enough, but with little to show for it. Everything is clearly copied over from a Dungeon Master manual, but with different flavour. Every single thing has it's clear DnD counterpart and there's little practical difference between them. No orcs in sight though (or at least for now), and I give bonus points for that.

Combat - I won't say that at my chosen difficulty level the combat was challenging, since it wasn't, but I wasn't looking for this either. To be fair, before hitting the level cap, there was some occasional challenge and the necessity for reloading, but after that it has been a walk in the park (except a single, optional encounter at a bottom of a very extra long dungeon). I'm sure that cranking up the difficulty will present a lot more options for tactics and such. What I can say I really dislike is the Health/Endurance things, which seems really meaningless and I don't see any real point to it. Also, per encounter/rest abilities, for the very same reason.

Items, economy - There's no economy in this game. There's little to buy from any of shops, there's very little to spend on the keep, even if I pay off everyone and hire all the expensive mercs, and there's too much gold given to the player. I don't see the point of looting 10 or so pointless currencies, when they are converted into one. Itemization is nonexistant, since through the pointless crafting everything can be turned into the same item, more or less. There's very little unique icons for items. Crafting/Enchanting should not have been in the game in this current form, since it eliminates the neverending quest for better gear (the starter gear can be made almost as good, if not better, as anything you can find), or the purchasing of potions/scrolls/etc. I mean time/money were spent on this, for f*'s sake, rather than on something else.

Technical stuff (graphics, sounds, music, etc). - No complaints. I like what I see and hear. Would definitely look forward to more games in this engine. Hopefully, they'll find the source of the waaay too long loading times and stomp it out even in the current version, my only major technical problem with the game.

On the whole, Pillars is extremely enjoyable, even if I find some stuff that really bugs me out. It's a very good game, and very much reminds me of BG 1. Looking forward to the expansion.

After 40 hours (according to Steam, it's probably more like 30) - I still like the game, but I'm not as enthused as I was at first.

I'm at level 8 in the Endless dungeon, and that's been pretty underwhelming so far. I still dislike the bestiary XP system, and would still much prefer a straight-up combat XP alternative. My party is around level 7-8, and I can smell the cap coming long before the end, as I'm still in Chapter 1. This tells me I'll be rushing through the last half of the game, most likely. I'm not captivated or immersed like I would be in a game like Gothic or Skyrim.

In fact, I feel like I'm playing a large BG expansion with a system that's both better and worse. Now, that's not a bad thing - but it's too familiar and I can't agree with anyone giving the game more than 8/10 at this point.

Good news is that combat has become much less of a hassle after I discovered the (over)power of the Priest class - and the sweet combo of the Chanter ranged/reload chant + 4 characters wielding ranged weapons, with 2 meat shields at the front. The vast majority of fights are easy to manage now, though I don't optimise - because that's too much of a hassle. For a game that went away from combat XP, it sure has a lot of combat.

It does have some light puzzle elements, but they've been very straighforward so far. I wish the game had half the combat and twice the brain teasers. That would have been a much more engaging experience for me. I'd also have loved a lot more of the little text-screen RPG interactions. Those are just wonderful for setting the PnP tone.

None of the story NPCs have been terribly interesting. Then again, I ditched Durance because I made a stupid mistake during level up - and I had to create my own priest instead. It's really, really stupid that I can't respec my party members, somehow. I have a feeling he's supposed to be one of the stand-outs, as he's quite "out there".

I started out being really intrigued by this new D&D alternative, but I have to say it's been a disappointment overall. Why? Because the choices that at first seemed interesting, have turned out to be too obvious. Too many powers seem borderline useless - and some classes seem forced in a specific direction if you intend to do anything nice with them. I don't know - it's probably on par or slightly better than 2nd Edition AD&D - but totally inferior to 3rd Edition, with the exception of a few mechanics. I love the engagement mechanic, and I find the implementation of Tank/Healing/DPS a nice addition, which 3rd Edition didn't really have. I also like the rest system better than the gamey constant resting in most D&D adaptions. However, I don't think the 2 supplies limit belongs on Hard, as it really just takes away fun. If you run out, you're always able to run back, and that's a hassle, not a challenge.

There are some really nice changes that I think make some of the core experience superior to BG. I absolutely LOVE the stash feature, and to me - it's such a clear demonstration of why such a system is superior in games like this. Not only would it have made BG/IWD much less annoying to play, it also makes plain how easy it would be to make DA:I that much more enjoyable, as you spend AGES in that game juggling crap in your inventory.

Crafting is ok - and it's definitely helpful. But it's slightly undercooked, and they really needed to make some kind of introduction to it. They also should have made it more immersive, with crafting stations and stuff. The way you can just do it at will without any notice, is strange and doesn't feel right. Still, it's much better than not having crafting.

The loot system is so-so, but not as bad as I feared. Later on, you find some really nice loot that breaks away from the dull "Fine, Exceptional, etc." system - which I feared wouldn't happen at first. Loot might not be as game changing as in BG/IWD, but it's close enough - and maybe it's good that you don't rely entirely on that.

The slow/fast speeds are a clear step up from BG/IWD - though I'm sure we all know how to edit .ini files to speed the old games up. But it's nice to have it be part of the game. I would have liked two more options, though - half the slow speed and twice the fast speed. That would have been perfect, for me.

I really like the scouting system, as it's much less of a hassle than stealth was in BG/IWD.

Pathfinding is still an issue - but I have to say dungeon crawling is significantly more pleasant in this game, because simply walking around rarely gets you stuck. In BG, it happened all the time.

I'm neutral on the whole Endurance/Health system. I think it's a superfluous thing, really. It's nice in theory, but they should have done more with it. As it is, it's just a pointless layer that doesn't really add anything.

I really like the Stronghold, in theory - but I have to say I could take it or leave it. So far, it has added very little to my experience. I've built more than half the buildings, and I really don't feel like a powerful lord at all - and it's still another hub that I have to travel to, to get the one nice thing out of it that I can see, which is the rest bonus/option. Maybe that changes later on? I hope so.

I love the way weapons have unique traits all by themselves, which is probably one of my favorite features in the game. That said, it seems DR is too powerful - and that means the game seems to favor the bigger and harder hitting weapons, which should never be the case. But since I'm still only in Chapter 1 - this might change.

I haven't been able to detect if my characters get more attacks as they level up? That was part of the delightful reward of level-up in the IE games, so I kinda think it belongs in this one too. It might be there, I just haven't noticed it.

I will have more comments once I'm done with the game, but I think it's mechanically superior to the IE games overall (except for the no custom script issue) - and as such, it's more pleasant in terms of pure gameplay.

That said, this is 2015 and they could have done so much more with this game. Even as a foundation for a series of games - which I'm sure PoE will become - it's simply not exciting enough for someone like myself. I want progress - and I'm not that keen on reliving the past, even if it's slightly improved.

I'm not seeing where the 9/10s or 10/10s are coming from, and I pride myself that I'm pretty good at putting myself in the shoes of other people. The only way I can see those justified is if the game changes significantly in Chapters 2 and 3. Perhaps the story goes wild or something? If not, then nostalgia DOES have a lot to do with it - and I think people have simply been dying to revisit this genre, and the initial surge of happiness at seeing a new game using it, is what's causing those 1-2 points to be added to scores.

I say that because I was also, initially, really excited and happy during those first 5-10 hours of the game, until the overly familiar feeling set in - and I was feeling just as I would replaying BG after a few years.

At this point, which is still too early to be sure, I'd probably rate it 7/10 or perhaps 7.5/10.

Well done Obsidian!

How would you rate bg 1 and 2? I assume similarly?

Originally Posted by Thrasher
How would you rate bg 1 and 2? I assume similarly?

It depends on whether I rate them according to time of release, or as if they were released today.

Since I never played BG2 for more than 20-30 hours, I don't think it's fair to give it a rating.

If BG came out today, it would probably rate around 6.5 or 7/10 for me, because of the quirks and issues present, as well as the rather lame writing. Back in 1998, it was closer to 8.5/10 or 9/10 for me.

Yeah, that's what I figured. Just wanted some context.

Back when I played BG 1 and 2 and ToB in 2006 I rated them 9, 9.5, and 8.5, respectively.

Right now PoE feels about the same to me.

Originally Posted by Thrasher
Yeah, that's what I figured. Just wanted some context.

Back when I played BG 1 and 2 and ToB in 2006 I rated them 9, 9.5, and 8.5, respectively.

Right now PoE feels about the same to me.

As a 9.5 or 8.5?

Are you far into it?

Oh gosh, still in act 2, going through the side quests which I am finding pretty cool and non-cliche. They are intertwined sometimes, so doing some before others makes doing the latter ones easier. I like those sort of choices and consequences. And I missed an easy solution to the Lighthouse top floor battle which almost wiped my party. The option was unexpected, and nice, I thought. Basically, I'm impressed by the variety of ways quests can be done, and potential consequences. Blows other recent RPGs out of the water in those aspects.

Right now I am edging towards 8.5 or 9.0. Similar to what I rated NWN 1/2.

Originally Posted by Thrasher
Oh gosh, still in act 2, going through the side quests which I am finding pretty cool and non-cliche. They are intertwined sometimes, so doing some before others makes doing the latter ones easier. I like those sort of choices and consequences. And I missed an easy solution to the Lighthouse top floor battle which almost wiped my party. The option was unexpected, and nice, I thought. Basically, I'm impressed by the variety of ways quests can be done, and potential consequences. Blows other recent RPGs out of the water in those aspects.

Right now I am edging towards 8.5 or 9.0. Similar to what I rated NWN 1/2.

I'd rate it just around NWN2 as well, which I also liked - but didn't quite fall in love with.

I think it's well done for this type of game.

That said, while it's inferior in a few key ways, I actually prefer DA:I to PoE - and I consider them very similar, only with DA:I being a modern version of the same formula.

DA:I has entirely too much generic filler content, respawns, and collection quest MMO stuff to rate as good as PoE for me. Not finding any of the PoE quest content nor exploration so repetitive, boring, and shallow.

From an immersion and visual point of view, DA:I is more egaging, buts that's just shallow eye candy to me. The world design in PoE is somehow more interesting than DA:I which seems a bit stale, certainly by the end after clearing all areas…

Of course, my opinion may change once I work my way through all of the content.

Originally Posted by Thrasher
DA:I has entirely too much generic filler content, respawns, and collection quest MMO stuff to rate as good as PoE for me. Not finding any of the PoE quest content so boring and shallow.

The actual writing is better in PoE, I'd agree - but I was very fatigued in Defiance Bay by the back and forth quests.

So, while I agree the PoE side-quest stories are neat, the engine itself is not very exciting - and I felt much more immersed in DA:I. I like the lore of Dragon Age about as much as PoE - which is to say I think it's fine, nothing more. I can't really pretend that I'm all that engaged in the history of either world.

But visual immersion is a huge thing for me, and I don't think that's shallow at all. It's part of what makes games so powerful - at least to me.

It's true there were plenty of "MMO quests" in DA:I, but they were obvious and you could easily skip them. But I sometimes enjoy focusing on combat and mindless tasks, just as long as I have the choice of focusing on other things when I want to. It's also why I love games like Skyrim, because there's plenty of meat if you look for it, and there's a lot of filler stuff if you're just in the mood for some slaughter.

I also prefer voiced delivery of quests and dialogue, and I felt the party AI was quite competent and the vast majority of encounters went as planned because of it.

I struggled with the combat interface for a long time in PoE, though I'm now a bit more comfortable with it. I still think the lack of custom scripts or basic AI setups is inexcusable, but you can't have it all