Pillars of Eternity - Patch 1.03 Notes Released

Originally Posted by sakichop
I have a similar problem with the rogue. if i sneak up behind an enemy and attack then I'm engaged and since there's no running away I end up just trading blows until one of us dies.

Couldn't you open combat with your tank and then make use of the two-second rule to backstab their engaged target?

I don't have a rogue though as I'm happy with my classic fighter/ranger/wizard/priest party.

Originally Posted by sakichop
How do you keep your monk alive without using heavy armor? I rolled one just to try it and I get killed in a few hits.

Putting heavy armor on a monk is just not something I want to do.

I have a similar problem with the rogue. if i sneak up behind an enemy and attack then I'm engaged and since there's no running away I end up just trading blows until one of us dies. I suppose I could us ranged but I refer to sneak up assassin style.

I basically play all my RPG's with a stealthy/assassin type and I can't seem to find a class or build that supports that adequately in the game.

Short coming of the game? or am I doing something wrong?

Almost everyone wears some sort of heavier armor in my parties, as the speed reduction isn't much of a problem. However, I customize the party to use the right type of armor: It seems that DR is often divided into sub categories (piercing, slashing, etc). Having a some heavy plate armor with high "DR", which in reality is just slashing and freeze reduction, is pretty much useless. There are some magic armors later on that are very solid despite being medium or even light, but they are rare.

I also have a 1h + shield weapon setup for most members, so I can swap to it if they get targeted.

Bottom line: I mix/max stuff. I don't really care about what type of armor they're wearing, as long as the performance is top notch. Also, my monk hit very fast and very hard, so he did live up to that part of the "monk role".

Originally Posted by Arhu
Couldn't you open combat with your tank and then make use of the two-second rule to backstab their engaged target?

I don't have a rogue though as I'm happy with my classic fighter/ranger/wizard/priest party.

Sometimes I can sometimes I get detected before I can get my fighter in range and sometimes I'm alone.

Either way though my rouge will get engaged anyway and if there's multiple enemies he will agro all of them before my fighter gets there.

Originally Posted by Drithius
When path 1.05 hits and I reroll a new team, I won't be including a rogue this time around. They're pretty worthless beyond the generic melee dps quotient, and I don't enjoy one dimensional characters.
[list][*]You don't need stealth unless you're roleplaying what you're used to from D&D. Autopause on enemy sighted taked care of everything traditional stealth scouting would have covered.

Cant think of one role that could drive to move around steatlhly.

Stealth is an essential part of the metagame as gathering information and engaging are essential.

The metagame is monolithic:

• Find the enemy
• Learn of the enemy
• Plan to destroy the enemy relatively to your own strengths and the enemy's weaknesses
• Move to engage
• Apply the plan

That is one cause the micromanagement is so low in this game. After one or two actions, players know about the outcome of the fight and the input of commands is not decided as things fly, it is made relatively to a plan that was decided before engaging.

Putting the game on auto pause as soon as the enemy is in sight is risking to put the party constantly in ambush conditions.

In the open, denying the engagement to an enemy is straight forward: fall back and regroup. Enemies are territorial and once out of range, they fall back.
In the dungeons, stealth is required not only to learn of the enemy but to reconnoître the terrain ahead.

Once done, the procedure to gather intelligence on the enemy might be performed through stealth. Once the enemy is learned, the plan might be devised.
Stealth might also be useful to deploy party members behind the enemy lines. Once the front is engaged, a quick weapon equipped character might go out of stealth and run to engage spell casters with no risk of being intercepted etc

Pause is barely useful in this game, everything must be decided beforehead, in the open, pause is unneeded as it only takes a few clicks to run away and deny the engagement. In the dungeons, stealth is mandatory to detect traps.

No fight should happen without the player deciding so and on the player's terms.
If players prefer to play every of their encounters as their party was ambushed, fine, cant remember either one role that suggests that getting ambushed is mandatory.

Actually, pause during combat signals more a failure in planning ahead than anything else.

Originally Posted by tomasp3n
You don't think being stabbed in the back qualifies as a detection measure?

I could think that. It wont matter though. That is what the whole subjective school is unable to comply with: whether I think that or this or whether they think that or this, it wont change that units in games might be able to attack and inflict damage while being invisible to their enemy.
Conventionnally called cloaked units. Apparently, from what it reads, the rogue is not a cloaked unit.
The good thing though for the all subjective school is that they are always right, even they are wrong. As shown by previous posts.

It it a withdrawal ability if you want it to be, but it's also a way to get into a good postition and deliver a backstab attack (you cannot be targeted at att all once you're invisible). The Rogue only gets 2 per rest however, resulting in me seldom using it. I woudl rather see they got one per encounter, or that the setalth mechanics are revised to allow for units to stay hidden after combat has started. .

Me, I and Myself. Outside me, the world does not exist.
Who cares? There is no cloaked units in the game.

Originally Posted by sakichop
if i sneak up behind an enemy and attack then I'm engaged and since there's no running away I end up just trading blows until one of us dies. I suppose I could us ranged but I refer to sneak up assassin style.

How is there no running away? Fights you cant run away from are scarce in the game from my experience (some boss fights)

Something close to an exploit: when most of the party is down, run away with survivors to trigger the end of the fight. If the engagement location was favourable, you might pick up the downed party members, regroup and re engage if desired either.

All it takes to run away is a few clicks away.

Originally Posted by ChienAboyeur
How is there no running away? Fights you cant run away from are scarce in the game from my experience (some boss fights)

Something close to an exploit: when most of the party is down, run away with survivors to trigger the end of the fight. If the engagement location was favourable, you might pick up the downed party members, regroup and re engage if desired either.

All it takes to run away is a few clicks away.

Hmm, maybe my guys are to slow, although the they shouldn't be rogue and monk with light armor.

I always get caught and engaged.

Originally Posted by ChienAboyeur
How is there no running away?

As this was in regard to a Rogue trying to successfully make use of Backstab:
http://pillarsofeternity.gamepedia.com/Melee_Engagement

And regarding your wall of text on stealth being a must-have for reconnaisance, every single think you wrote that I bothered to read is covered by the autopause on enemy sighted option - which pauses the game BEFORE agro is established but AFTER you can see the enemy.

Stealth has NO use in the game beyond acting as a crutch for a rogue's broken, two talent required, two use per rest backstab. Mechanics is far and away a superior skill to invest in.

Yeah, considering the level 12 cap? 2 talents is a hefty price for backstab to work properly.

It should just be a free class skill.

Originally Posted by sakichop
Hmm, maybe my guys are to slow, although the they shouldn't be rogue and monk with light armor.

I always get caught and engaged.

Out of fight, only beasts like lions, wolves etc are fast enough to catch up on a party that denies an engagement. Even for them, if ever one party member is downed, this should happen outside the zone the enemy keeps a line on sight once returned to their territorial pinning.

In fight, various items helps to increase speed, make disengagement easier etc
It is also possible that once engaged by another character, the target loses its attack of opportunity on the disengaging thief.

Originally Posted by Drithius
And regarding your wall of text on stealth being a must-have for reconnaisance, every single think you wrote that I bothered to read is covered by the autopause on enemy sighted option - which pauses the game BEFORE agro is established but AFTER you can see the enemy.

Stealth has NO use in the game beyond acting as a crutch for a rogue's broken, two talent required, two use per rest backstab. Mechanics is far and away a superior skill to invest in.

The insight autopause happens when the first enemy is in sight. It cant covered enemies that are still covered by the fog of war, reinforcements that might move from adjacent rooms etc

It cant support a specific deployment. That is a real time with pause game, not a "ugoigo" thing, planning is better made ahead.

Originally Posted by sakichop
How do you keep your monk alive without using heavy armor? I rolled one just to try it and I get killed in a few hits.

Putting heavy armor on a monk is just not something I want to do.

I have a similar problem with the rogue. if i sneak up behind an enemy and attack then I'm engaged and since there's no running away I end up just trading blows until one of us dies. I suppose I could us ranged but I refer to sneak up assassin style.

I basically play all my RPG's with a stealthy/assassin type and I can't seem to find a class or build that supports that adequately in the game.

Short coming of the game? or am I doing something wrong?

My monk has medium armor with -35% recovery. He also has 2 axes instead of fists which gives him +10 deflection while keeping damage as good (except crushing damage of fists is usually superior). He has 17 Con which makes him very durable during combat and has most health of anyone in the party. Also monk never goes first, that is the job for 100+ deflection Eder which engages 2-3 enemies. Monk cleans up the rest.