Wizardry 8 - A Samurai, a Valkyrie, and a Bishop walk into a bar…

Originally Posted by dteowner
Now, now, expert isn't that bad. I also prefer to play on normal since the appeal of the game lies in character development for me, but I've done a few expert runs and it just requires greater adherence to tactics you probably try to do anyway.

I find that it mostly just requires you to grind more, as enemies are harder to hit and suffer from HP bloat but your skill increases are a lot slower.

Offensive magic becomes useless in Expert mode, melee seems to be the way to go. Although I can't say I've experimented a lot with ranged heavy parties as they are a pain to develop early on. Might be that with a more dynamic playstyle ranged is powerful on Expert, but it's not my experience.

I'd say offensive magic is useless in normal mode as well, but I've always favored pointy sticks over hocus pocus. For me, magic in Wiz8 is for buffs then status effects (paralysis of various flavors, in particular). About the only other situation where magic has a marked benefit is when critters are out of range, since you can still target area effect spells beyond bow range. Since the game likes to cheat sometimes with critters casting outside of range, that offensive magic is about your only option to even it out.

By the time I hit the Peak, my mages/bishops have usually come close to capping their staff skill. Take from that what you will.

Originally Posted by dteowner
Not sure such a thing exists. I do know a few things-
1) Back in the day, the dev team refused to release that "under the hood" info. Several people did extensive research using a trainer program and lots of trial and error but never came up with definitive answers.
2) Generally speaking, the stats and skills appear to be based on 5's and 15's. The most obvious place to see that is in spell availability, but it appears to be the case across the board. So there's very little difference between a 28 and a 29 (for example), but a measurable step between a 29 and a 30.
3) Although it was never confirmed, it was also "very loudly" never denied by the devs that there's some sort of random rolls involved in the calculations. This might tie into the inability of those gunners to deconstruct the system.

Now that makes me sad. IE games were confusing but all the numbers were there and once you understood the system nothing was hidden.

I prefer to min max games I play as much as possible. Not knowing the mechanics behind the game will bug me more I play (I didn't bother learning Blackguards when I started but at midgame I learned it all and was pleased for it).

Originally Posted by DArtagnan
You didn't seriously just call combat a small part of Wizardry 8, did you?

No, I didn't. Think again about what grinding means. Playing the Rapax castle just for XP doesn't mean the whole game is just about grinding combat for XP.

Rapax castle is bad for the huge number of enemies that respawn in the same areas, after just taking a few steps or less. It's the repetitiveness and length that's bad. The whole game isn't nearly as tedious as that.

Combat is required though, through most of the game. Repeating the same combat encounters over and over for needed XP (i.e. "grinding") is not.

EDIT: Depends on difficulty level, perhaps.

It won't be too bad for you. The paths to developing toons are fairly well defined by now. If you want specifics, just ask. I never pass up a chance to pontificate about Wiz8.

Originally Posted by Thrasher
No, I didn't. Think again about what grinding means.

I know it means different things to different people

Originally Posted by DArtagnan
You didn't seriously just call combat a small part of Wizardry 8, did you?

You didn't seriously just equate all combat with grinding, did you?

Dart doesn't like combat. So all combat is grinding to him.

Originally Posted by DArtagnan
I know it means different things to different people

I think it even means different things to the same person at different times. Some days I love sloggng my way through trash mobs … other days I just can't stand any of it

I enjoy combat when it's good and delivered in appropriate doses. Wizardry 8 combat felt like a major grind to me because there's so much of it, but such is how we all differ.

"Grindy" and grinding aren't the same thing.

Grinding usually means you're farming for xp or loot. Grindy is simply a term some people use to describe when combat is overly long or tedious to them.

I can see how some people would consider Wiz 8 grindy due to how long the battles can take. As much as I enjoyed it, there were times I found myself wishing certain fights could just be over.

Well I think that's splitting hairs on the definition of grindy vs grinding. But mostly, I did not find the combat too much or tedious in W8 way back when (except for Rapax).

Nowadays I may not have patience for it, but I doubt it. MMX has lots of similar long battles as well, yet I relished them, and Dart hated them. See the pattern?

I like perfecting my technique and trying different things in turn-based combat. May be I am just not as good at it as others, here, who get bored quickly. But I'll bet it's more of a preference for storytelling, characterization, or exploration over combat. I'm sort of middle of the road, compared to most here.

Originally Posted by Thrasher
Well I think that's splitting hairs on the definition of grindy vs grinding. But mostly, I did not find the combat too much or tedious in W8 way back when (except for Rapax).

Nowadays I may not have patience for it, but I doubt it. MMX has lots of similar long battles as well, yet I relished them, and Dart hated them. See the pattern?

I like perfecting my technique and trying different things in turn-based combat. May be I am just not as good at it as others, here, who get bored quickly. But I'll bet it's more of a preference for storytelling, characterization, or exploration over combat. I'm sort of middle of the road, compared to most here.

It's a misconception that I don't like long battles, if the combat system is interesting.

The combat system is good in both MMX and Wiz 8.

The problem is the amount and density of combat encounters - not the actual combat system or the battles.

I think that's a pretty important distinction.

I do enjoy exploration more than other things, but I love tactical battles and character progression that involves getting new powers and toys. I love optimising and powergaming, and that's primarily rewarded during combat.

So, no, I don't hate the battles in Wiz 8 or MMX. I just hate the repetitive nature of doing little but fighting - which is how both games felt to me. Do note that I understand other people may enjoy combat MORE than I do, and some may even feel there's not enough combat in those games.

I love a great story - but I'd be bored to tears in games that have nothing but story. I need interesting ways to interact with the environment - and I need to feel in control of the experience.

So, I tend to dislike certain kinds of adventure games - like the recent Walking Dead - because it's essentially a very linear story with minimal control of the experience.

To conclude that I hate stories because of that would also be very wrong.

I thought both games had good exploration too, and puzzling, but perhaps not enough for you. You had the same reaction to legend of grimrock, too, iirc.

Only w8 had much in the way of C&C.

Originally Posted by Thrasher
I thought both games had good exploration too, and puzzling, but perhaps not enough for you. You had the same reaction to legend of grimrock, too, iirc.

Only w8 had much in the way of C&C.

It's been ages since I played Wiz 8 - but I do remember being exhausted with combat once I got to that first big town, and had lost all will to continue. That was before they'd made that speed-up patch for combat, though.

MMX had what I would call limited exploration and a few neat puzzles, but it was really the lack of an interesting story and NWC charm that made me give up on it.

I'd never call these games bad or anything, as I recognise it's just a matter of personal preferences - and I've spent several hours with them, after all.

As for LoG - I did manage to complete it a year or so ago, and I ended up liking it for what it was.

But it's true that these games are simply too limited in terms of what I call gameplay arsenal. As gaming experiences, I find them too predictable and narrow.

I feel the same way about Mass Effect 2 and 3, which should give you some idea of how demanding I can be. They also feel like endless combat to me - even though I know there's a lot of story. The problem is that I don't care for Bioware writing - and I think the combat density is sickening. I actually prefer combat in Wiz 8 and MMX - because at least the combat systems are interesting in those games.

It's been a long time since Wizardry 8, but I remember that my issue was not the number or length of the fights, but the fact that when you left an area, all of the monsters not only respawned, but were level scaled to your new level. It meant that every time I wanted to travel, even if it was just to go back to town, it was a whole new slog against against a horde of enemies, who were leveled up not enough to be challenging, but enough to take forever to kill. That seriously discouraged exploration for me.

Getting characters developed that can cast the portal spells is usually a high priority for just that reason. If you've got 2 in the party, you're golden, although 4 is even better. Your first one gets set for your room at Heli's (or wherever you set up shop), your second one is for the area you're working, the third is for the Trang teleporter, and the fourth is for Ferro. Using those, you can get just about anywhere in one or two map transitions with minimal fear of roaming critters.

Originally Posted by dteowner
Getting characters developed that can cast the portal spells is usually a high priority for just that reason. If you've got 2 in the party, you're golden, although 4 is even better. Your first one gets set for your room at Heli's (or wherever you set up shop), your second one is for the area you're working, the third is for the Trang teleporter, and the fourth is for Ferro. Using those, you can get just about anywhere in one or two map transitions with minimal fear of roaming critters.

Which magic schools are these portals?

All of them. It's a level 5 spell (actually 2 spells, although you get them both with a single pick if you don't get them via finding books) so you're going to be waiting a while. Pretty sure they come out of the divine book, but definitely all 4 schools get access.

I never saw the respawning as a big deal, as you can simply avoid enemies in a lot of cases if you don't want to fight them.