Explain Bioware hate to me!

Originally Posted by Alrik Fassbauer
Good point. Hate is beginning to occur when something that's thought to be just "cool" and *not* being mainstream just becomes popular and does become mainstream ?

Reminds me of Genesis. Most of the fans who like their "progressive age" don't like their pop songs and vice versa. But in fact nothing has changed about Genesis. Only their way of making music has changed. Well, yes, and some members weren't on board anymore when Genesis became mainstream. "Becoming mainstream" is to some sorts of fans = treason.

This almost goes without saying in the music business. There are even popular memes about it:

Coldplay’s negative stigma: the mainstream complex

The difference here is that Bioware have always been mainstream, have always designed their games with profit as the primary focus and haven't changed their modus operandi throughout their existence (the concept of companions). They have never shown a great deal of originality with nearly all their games based on existing entities (D&D, Diablo and Star Wars) to which their first 'original' concept was a purely console venture that barely anyone cares about - Jade Empire. They then followed the FPS cash cow and converted their companions into a space adventure. Origins showed that their capability for originality in a fantasy setting was ok story/setting-wise (but nothing groundbreaking) but pretty lacking in any idea of mechanics (just as Jade had been). DA2 slumped and then they just try to cash in on the Skyrim effect.

So I'm not entirely sure where this "it's because they went mainstream" idea comes from when weren't they always either mainstream or aiming at mainstream?

Originally Posted by Carnifex
I no longer dislike Bioware. I wouldn't ever spend a penny on anything they or EA touched, let alone ever install Origin on my pc (because I actually like my pc). They are beneath my contempt.

I do, however, shower many idies with my money. THAT is my response to EA and Bioware.

Yes, that was last game I bought from them. And now it has come so far, I didn't even care to pirate DAI. I am not sure if I will bother pirating new Mass Effect as well.

Compared with Bethesda, last game bought was Morrowind but at least I still care enough to pirate their games (well F3 I played for 1 hour before uninstalling and deleting the torrent and FNV I consider an Obsidian game) to at least give them a shot.
Skyrim survived about 20-25 hours on my PC before being uninstalled and forgotten.

Originally Posted by JDR13
I think most of us have at least one particular game where we just don't see what others do. For instance, I've never got what makes KotOR so good for most people. I played it and finished it, but I don't get why so many others consider it a great game.

As far as the other games you mention, I've played them all, and with the exception of U7, I wouldn't put them on the same level as BG. Especially when it comes to how they've aged and how playable they are by today's standards.

Ultima 7 and Fallout 1-2 are all such games for me. They just never did anything for me, which is remarkable, as they should be pretty much spot on.

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At any rate, the BioWare bashing is sometimes justified (ME3 ending etc), but often irrational. Similar to Bethesda and Blizzard.

It has been pointed out several times in this thread: Original fans of something often feel betrayed when that something is no longer as niche as it was, and then the irrational bashing begins.

In a way, I feel the same about Blizzard. I was a fan back when Blizzard was a small company, loving games like Warcraft, and I simply don't like their current multiplayer direction (Overwatch, Hearthstone, Heroes of the Storm). I still consider most of the bashing irrational (as is the case with BioWare), but people have a tendency to overreact when they get emotional (if something doesn't meet their expectations it's suddenly "the worst thing ever").

The fact that people are emotional regarding game developers, musicians or movie makers just goes to show you that said people are a bit naive, actually thinking that being an initial fan of something means anything. It doesn't. Money talks and all that.

The title could be as well "Explain Bioware love to me!"
Bioware polarize people, at least people who still care.

they're producing dumbed down RPG lites with twitch combat and shoe-horned political agendas. Personally I just don't dig that. It's hardly worth the effort to hate them.

I don't have any particular hate for Bioware. Hate just eats you up and leaves you poorer for the experience. Like any gaming company they've produced some decent titles and some sub par efforts. I find it's best to judge each of their games on its own merits, and leave the prejudice for narrower minds.

Bioware has made several games I've enjoyed hugely, though there have been some unwelcome elements since EA took hold. I don't really mind the clunky ending to ME3 (epics are notoriously difficult to end satisfyingly), but making it compulsory to play a phone game in order to increase your military strength in a PC game is a way to piss me off pretty quickly.

When you combine the widespread hatred of EA with things like gay romances, then the sort of people who like to make YouTube videos about "SJWs" and conspiracies have something to focus on for a while. It's pretty meaningless to me.

Originally Posted by Ripper
Bioware has made several games I've enjoyed hugely, though there have been some unwelcome elements since EA took hold. I don't really mind the clunky ending to ME3 (epics are notoriously difficult to end satisfyingly), but making it compulsory to play a phone game in order to increase your military strength in a PC game is a way to piss me off pretty quickly.

Thumb up and thumb down.

Up for pay2win war assets by getting a phonegame or buying DLC in first two MEs.

Down for not playing ME3:Citadel which is a proper ending and totally satisfying (wouldn't surprise me if in some 10 years a dev admits it was a cut out ending to be sold separately just as the story critical Javik was).

Originally Posted by Ripper
When you combine the widespread hatred of EA with things like gay romances, then the sort of people who like to make YouTube videos about "SJWs" and conspiracies have something to focus on for a while. It's pretty meaningless to me.

Geez, FO2 that isn't even EA game had gay "romance" possibility and I don't remember any fuss over it a decade ago. Not that it's the only example.
Sure to some it could be the reason to hate, but not a reason to hate just Bioware.

Gay romance is not the problem for many people that complain, but how Bioware pushes that agenda through games is. They don't just put gay characters in the game (no reason to not have them as they exist in real life), they use them to push their agenda. And that annoys a big group of people.

So, what is this agenda?

From what I gathered same as in real life, getting gay people to be accepted 100% by society. Or even 110% since they are a very small percentage of population while they appear almost everywhere now.

Originally Posted by Archangel
From what I gathered same as in real life, getting gay people to be accepted 100% by society. Or even 110% since they are a very small percentage of population while they appear almost everywhere now.

The extent to which that's an agenda in some wider conspiracy sense is somewhat questionable. Societies always have agendas in this sense, that's like saying every political inclination is an agenda, which it is, but its not a conspiracy, it's just humans changing their opinions from generation to generation. If humans didn't do that nothing would ever change, we'd still be worshiping Sun Gods, performing blood sacrifices and executing anyone who questioned our reality even in the slightest way.

The only agenda they have is cold hard cash combined with a certain level of desire to produce what they want to produce. Homosexuality might be a minority circumstance, but such people still have cash to spend, they are still active consumers. If Bioware can tell them that Bioware is the right place for their cash, that's not an agenda, that's called 'normal market activities'.

You think games are flooded with gays? You think gays are 100% everywhere? Really? Since when does Bioware account for 100% of the gaming market? It's like your only noticing this because one of the only games to embrace this market just happened to be a game that you're interested in, when you are quite free to play the 99.9% of games which make no reference whatsoever to homosexuality. But, whoa!… Boiware made a game so I must cry conspiracy.

If Bioware made a deep RPG with worthwhile, branching dialogue and choices again I'd buy it even if all characters were gay.

Originally Posted by lackblogger
The extent to which that's an agenda in some wider conspiracy sense is somewhat questionable. Societies always have agendas in this sense, that's like saying every political inclination is an agenda, which it is, but its not a conspiracy, it's just humans changing their opinions from generation to generation. If humans didn't do that nothing would ever change, we'd still be worshiping Sun Gods, performing blood sacrifices and executing anyone who questioned our reality even in the slightest way.

The only agenda they have is cold hard cash combined with a certain level of desire to produce what they want to produce. Homosexuality might be a minority circumstance, but such people still have cash to spend, they are still active consumers. If Bioware can tell them that Bioware is the right place for their cash, that's not an agenda, that's called 'normal market activities'.

You think games are flooded with gays? You think gays are 100% everywhere? Really? Since when does Bioware account for 100% of the gaming market? It's like your only noticing this because one of the only games to embrace this market just happened to be a game that you're interested in, when you are quite free to play the 99.9% of games which make no reference whatsoever to homosexuality. But, whoa!… Boiware made a game so I must cry conspiracy.

Well as far as Bioware games go I am mostly just restating what I read here and there. I didn't even play DAI which is supposed to be worst in this and I didn't really look very closely at that in their other games. I mostly ignored all romance anyways so maybe because of that.

Personally I don't mind gay people in games as long as that is part of the story and makes sense. But from what I read DAI had them give speeches and such which is way more than that.

As for gay people being everywhere, I was talking more about TV shows and movies. It would seem that almost every show has at least one unless they are targeted at teen audience that care more about love triangles and cool effects. It is certainly in much much more than 10% of shows which is what is their percentage in society.

Originally Posted by Archangel
As for gay people being everything, I was talking more about TV shows and movies. It would seem that almost every show has at least one unless they are targeted at teen audience that care more about love triangles and cool effects. It is certainly in much much more than 10% of shows which is what is their percentage in society.

The other day I watched an old John Wayne war movie from 1949 entitled Sands of Iwo Jima. I watched this because I'd also recently watched Clint Eastwoods masterpiece duel-movie combo showing the battle from both perspectives, Japanese and American, Letters From Iwo Jima and Flags of Our Fathers.

The 1949 movie had a blatantly homosexual character providing traditional light relief. The more recent movie from 2006 did not have a blatantly homosexual character. And you could find similar parallels throughout cinema and TV history.

Perhaps it's the movies you're choosing to watch? Or perhaps you believe someone's hype?

Who knows, but it is what it is.

Well, that was certainly an educational thread. So I guess majorly BW is hated because it's so popular to hate it, as silly as it sounds. Others, who I believe are the minority of "true RPG fans", hate it for the dialogue wheel, dumbed down combat, etc.

As for gays and political agendas, I will never understand what kind of problem it can pose. I mean, does it make you uncomfortable to see gays in games? Really? And maybe even women? It even bothers you to see gays in movies? Then I'd say the problem is with you, not with BW or movies. *shrug*

Hate is such a strong word - though I'm certain it does apply to some people when it comes to their favorite target.

In my experience, hate is not about the object of hate - but the person doing the hating.

As in, it has little to do with Bioware - and a lot to do with the person feeling hate.

However, I really do sympathise with people who dislike what Bioware has become - even if I'm personally "past" that stage. I mean, I simply don't particularly care about it anymore.

I don't dislike Dragon Age Inquistion, for instance - and I actually think it's a great game in many ways. I do recognise that it's lost a lot of detail and nuance compared to older games - but then again, it's no longer an industry that's about appealing to dedicated fans.

It's an industry where game development is dictated by market trends and suit perception. In that way, I actually admire that Bioware can release a game like DA:I - which is a pretty deep CRPG in several ways.

I'm probably finding it much easier to deal with because the industry is huge - and we have lots of other games - including the crowdfunding market.

When I was a kid and the entire audience was made up of nerds, I was lucky if I saw a single interesting game each month - and half of them were more or less broken, I just didn't realise it. My standards were much lower back then.

These days, I can hardly keep up with the ANNOUNCEMENTS of interesting games - which seems to be happening every single day. I mean, my problem is anything but a lack of great games.

So, there are too many good things happening for me to focus on the bad things.

Originally Posted by Archangel
As for gay people being everywhere, I was talking more about TV shows and movies. It would seem that almost every show has at least one unless they are targeted at teen audience that care more about love triangles and cool effects. It is certainly in much much more than 10% of shows which is what is their percentage in society.

First, 10% of the population is gay statistic that people throw around is basically a myth… It was taken from the Kinsey reports, but that report was criticized for not being very scientific in its methods. Moreover Kinsey disapporved of using strict categories like Homosexual and Heterosexual, because it is more complicated than that. When you consider things like there may be a lot of bisexual people who are in heterosexual relationships, gay people who are in the closet or in extreme denial, etc. it could be more than 10%. Or less. Who cares?

As for gays being everywhere in tv / movies… I could probably think of a lot of TV shows I watch that don't have a gay character. But then maybe they had a minor one and I didn't even notice it; Because I'm not offended or made uncomfortable by gay people I'm probably less likely to even notice it than someone who is.

The portrayal of gay people on TV and movies seems to improved in recent years; they're less likely to be highly stereotypical or included only as the butt of a joke. But I hope we can get to the point soon where a character being gay is usually just incidental and not a big deal… Unless the show, movie, book, or game is actually about discrimination or legal rights, it really should be as minor of a detail as someone's hair, eye, or skin color. If a certain demographic is slightly over-represented is that really a problem? Seems to me that sort of thing would only bother bigots.

I could understand disapproving if they were being forced into stories that they don't fit for the sake of inclusion / pandering, but I don't think that's the case very often… Gay characters are just in more stuff than they used to because people are acknowledging their existence more. I haven't played DA:I and don't intend to because of my disappointment with DA2 and ME3, so maybe it does go overboard with pandering / preachiness… But IMO that's more an issue of bad writing than some sort of "agenda" or conspiracy.