Modern vs Old

Originally Posted by Gallifrey
As far as my memories go, I have fond recollections of time spent with many games, but I'm sure that if I went back and played some of them I'd be sorely disappointed.

I'm not sure at all this is true, eventually we aren't speaking of the same oldies. If you are thinking of Wizadry 1, Ultima 1 or Moria then for sure it's crap but since decades. I also think that it's very hard to get back and lost some comfort like the automap and sometimes the diary. Otherwise I'm not sure playing oldies should not work. Partially because of the reason you mention forward (imagination), plus that core qualities of gaming aren't lost.

That said I probably have my limits too, I have discovered recently the mass of oldies you can play under DOSBOx and I started replay or play some. I already got shocked by two, Albion and Ultimate Underworld, both aren't that old but still very old if you compare to modern CRPG. I also tried to replay Ultima 7 (I played it only very partially in the past) but for now didn't succeed to solve a problem of speed of the game. But it seems promising if I succeed to solve the problem.

But I also tried quickly Dungeon Master that I also played in the past but much later than it's release and never finished it. Honestly if some historian see it as the real grand father of modern 3D CRPG games more than UUW, my attempt to enter in it totally failed.

Originally Posted by Gallifrey
In essence, it's nostalgia that dominates, not critical analysis, the looking back at the old computer RPGs.

Perhaps but again I'm not sure it's true, I really think some core qualities of gaming was often better in many oldies.

Originally Posted by Gallifrey
We played the games in our heads as much as we did on the computer itself. Today, everything is so perfectly rendered we don't need imagination that much, so games tend not to stick in memory so well.

That's why I

- think text-adventures are great for igniting creativity
- prefer P&P
- modern "graphically enhanced" games are a foe of Ctreativity
- therefore people - (especially) younger generations - might end up being less creative in the aspect of imagination than former ones were
- people become too passive in that respect
- this might have some effect on culture in general

TV and games that look like TV movies (well, almost right now), imhop tend to produce rather passivity than creativity. And this - I fear - might have an impact on culture at one point in the future.

Or to put it in other words: We are becoming sheep …

Lol Alrik you're tough to see us as a crowd of sheeps! Eventually you are right but I'd like add that I don't think entertainments is the same thing than culture, perhaps a part of it but I don't feel it's the core of gaming. And also art isn't culture nor gaming and gaming isn't art even if very few game had some art embedded.


EDIT : That was running in my head but I couldn't extract it. All I complain about CRPG is linked to the occidental world decadence, our society is firmly leading to women values by opposition to men values. Opposition and confrontation are the core of gaming and are men values but games tends to appealing and entertaining that are more women values. Here is the source of the problem not the sheeps.

Sorry, but I'm always trying to project *far* into the future.
It's one of my skills, in addition to my "network thinking", and might let sound some of my posts rather weird.

Originally Posted by Dasale
EDIT : That was running in my head but I couldn't extract it. All I complain about CRPG is linked to the occidental world decadence, our society is firmly leading to women values by opposition to men values. Opposition and confrontation are the core of gaming and are men values but games tends to appealing and entertaining that are more women values. Here is the source of the problem not the sheeps.

I believe that it's rather so that men are using games to "proof their manhood", kind of a "test" of what more ancient or "primitive" societies would conduct as a special test for younglings to enter the "adult phase".

I've read a book by WArren Farrwll in the mid-80s, and it heavily influenced me.
He states there that women rather prefer men who are able to "support" them and their children, and therefore men are rather trying to show what they can to impress these women.

I recently read about a scientific study which also says that women prefer men with "might" or "power" and men prefer "good looking women" as partners for reproducing.
This adds to this point of view.

So, I believe - following this "thought school", that men are - as Warren Farrell says - in constant competition - among themselves - to show what a) each one is able to do, and b) show women whio's the best for supporting.

Gaming is in my opinion - following that - just another "play field" or "battle field" of men testing and competing one another.

If this is so, then gaming might a whole different recognition in women, I think. Not as a platform for constant competition, but rather for something else …

And by the way, Warren Farrell says that women have their own kind of competition, too : How to look good …

Originally Posted by Alrik Fassbauer
Sorry, but I'm always trying to project *far* into the future.
It's one of my skills, in addition to my "network thinking", and might let sound some of my posts rather weird.

Lol, not a problem, your sheep world vision was clear and easy to understand.

Not much more to add to it so I branch to a shift the lost of men values involving our decadence. I suspect the studies you quote needs some rehash. I've seen other studies showing funny things. In short, the male showing traditional qualities, mainly those you mentioned was highly favorite by women in state of been able to be pregnant (dunno the english word!) but not all by women not in this state that clearly prefer men much more "women like". Funny paradox! Anyway even if there's link I'm not sure the decadence problem is here.

Still in short, there's various explanation, here the one I prefer. The lost of men values involve a lost of the man pattern ie the father pattern which involves a lost of the ability to really learn what is the law and this involves a lost of shared morale values which involves a lost of important mental barrier which involve and will more and more involve for more and more people an instability and difficulties to enter a group. One of the more funny side effect is rise of violence of any kind, I'm not talking about war. It's a funny side effect because this shift of values expect exactly the reverse than what it gets.

Yes I have no arguing about this, that could become complicate and not enough linked to our subject.

I think there's link anyway because, I could be wrong, I see the core of game values and what make games are games (sport is in the same category) is two things :
- Human confrontation in a strict context, but all non mp games don't have this.
- Human confrontation to a series of rules with a goal to reach.

That's all and not entertainment at all, it's just that it's also entertainment because it can keep you busy.

Now if you look at older CRPG and their features that disapear or decrease a lot in modern CRPG: Puzzles, fights, higher difficulty, maps design making you scratch a little your mind. All of that is the core of gaming and is about confronting to problems, not entertainment. Ie men values, and when you look at modern CRPG and which features are better than in oldies you'll get a list of features linked to women values.

Just another hint that we are going to an occidental civilization with women values only.

EDIT : That could even explain why Europe seems to take the CRPG market those last years, this old country is nearer to decadence so paradoxically it anticipate better values more and more expected!!!

EDIT 2 : In fact The Witcher catch and symbolize the problem with irony but quite well. Geralt or the withers are tthe only male figures with male values. The figure isn't only tuned into ridiculous but it's also the last one, can't reproduce or eventually through genetic manipulation but even that is lost. Death of man. :-) But not only that, Geralt doubt about choices and where is evil isn't clear anymore, is a funny link to lost of morale values and lost of men values!!

Originally Posted by Dasale
I agree for the luck thing but certainly not for the challenge thing, gaming is a lot about using your brain, without challenge your brain becomes sleepy and the game boring. If you don't want use your brain then watch TV and stop play CRPG… but Oblivion.

And that was exactly my point. You obviously play games as you would any kind of sport, as an exercise of sorts. In any kind of exercise you've got to get the blood flowing and sweat a little. In terms of brain exercise you've got to challenge the brain with puzzles or strategy or whatnot.

I'm NOT playing RPG games as a kind of sport. When I play RPGs I seek the same kind of experience I would get from reading a book or watching a movie. I want to hear/read the dialog, I want to experience the story, I want to get to know the characters, I want to be the fly on the wall that was there when the fate of the one/many/world/universe was decided.

It is not that I refuse to play a game that is challenging but when poor game design, be it in-game ability reliance ("You're not a fighter? Well, then you won't be able to beat this boss") or real life reliance ("Come now, all you've got to do is hit these 10 buttons in the correct order within 2.2 seconds") or even precognition ("Come now, you should have realized that all you have to do is combine your Mystery Potion with your Wand of Unidentification in this secret spot at this undisclosed time and you'll unlock the only vulnerable spot in Mega Boss's Shield"), creates artificially difficult scenarios then I lose interest in the game.

If I want a brain challenge then I play games designed for such activity (e.g. Puzzle games).

The important point is that every uniquely individual RPG'er plays each unique RPG in a different style/mode, and gets a uniquely subjective experience OUT of that individualistic approach within the context of the unique RPG.

Therefore, the notion … "if your opinion of the game is different than mine, then one of us must be wrong", is itself, wrong.

Yes, it's not a problem of what is better, it's about how different it became. I also agree that my description of what a game is, is restrictive. The old dream of interactive novel, in a way, perhaps some games, eventually some CRPG are going nearer to this goal.

Anyway, fatBastard quote "When I play RPGs I seek the same kind of experience I would get from reading a book or watching a movie." bring me the exact example of what I tried to explain. CRPG are now seen less and less as game but more like novel or movie. Well is it game or movie or novel? At least a puzzle game is a game, eventually CRPG road is to not be anymore games but something else closer to novel or movie.

Originally Posted by Alrik Fassbauer
That's why I

- think text-adventures are great for igniting creativity
- prefer P&P
- modern "graphically enhanced" games are a foe of Ctreativity
- therefore people - (especially) younger generations - might end up being less creative in the aspect of imagination than former ones were
- people become too passive in that respect
- this might have some effect on culture in general

TV and games that look like TV movies (well, almost right now), imhop tend to produce rather passivity than creativity. And this - I fear - might have an impact on culture at one point in the future.

Or to put it in other words: We are becoming sheep …

Yes, it seems as if the imaginative process is being bypassed in favor of spoon fed, uber-realistic imagery.

Now if you'll excuse me, I have a TV dinner in the microwave.

Alrik, are you saying that Women find gamers attractive? The better you are at them the more you become a magnet?

Let's hold that thought! Take your time with that one, Alrik!

Meh, I still won't get any…

Übereil

Originally Posted by Dasale
CRPG are now seen less and less as game but more like novel or movie. Well is it game or movie or novel?.

Why not all three: An interactive story, augmented by visuals, and interspersed with tactical/analytical challenges.
Sorry to change the subject about gamers being chick magnets and all, I know it's a tantalizing thought

What a thought, gamers are chick magnets……ok, holding this thought for as long as possible until reality sets in. Stupid reality will ruin it every time.

Originally Posted by Geist
Why not all three: An interactive story, augmented by visuals, and interspersed with tactical/analytical challenges.
Sorry to change the subject about gamers being chick magnets and all, I know it's a tantalizing thought

Sure all three is the dream, but currently I see attention too much caught by the interactive novel and forgot a bit gaming values. That really hit me because I'm playing some older games and the difference is very big, gameplay was the main focus of older CRPG when now the main focus for CRPG is more interactive novel and simulation.

Originally Posted by Lucky Day
Alrik, are you saying that Women find gamers attractive? The better you are at them the more you become a magnet?

Not in gaming, but in general. Gaming is only ONE form of competition.

Women - as I see it - have rather a tendency towards socializing than to competition, especially among themselves, I think.

In my experience, women are just as competitive as men are, but in a different way; perhaps a more subtle way!!

Is there close link between testosterone and competition? Answer this and you get the answer to your question.

Originally Posted by Corwin
In my experience, women are just as competitive as men are, but in a different way; perhaps a more subtle way!!

I agree. And: About different things.


Besides, this author has influenced me in the 80s to some extend, because he came to similar conclusions I had developed in the 80s : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warren_Farrell
Edit: I see that someone has heavily reworked this article; a few months ago it looked quite differently (especially longer !) and more objective.

Originally Posted by Lucky Day
Alrik, are you saying that Women find gamers attractive? The better you are at them the more you become a magnet?

Wishful thinking. Women find nice bodies attractive (you can always put a towel over his head, so there).
If a guy's good at a video game, that just makes him a target for either my envy or my pity (depending on whether I can beat him or not).