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PC graphics have stagnated
February 7th, 2017, 03:43
It is a frustration to me that almost all games these days are either targeted to console hardware, or indie productions that don't push the envelope.
I wonder if you've seen this promo from Star Citizen.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zlV3nYxuTZw
Yes, it's vapourware at this stage, and no doubt running on serious hardware, but, I think this really is the sort of experience we should be seeing at this stage. Back in the day, when PC games were really for PCs, the rate of advancement was so much faster.
I wonder if you've seen this promo from Star Citizen.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zlV3nYxuTZw
Yes, it's vapourware at this stage, and no doubt running on serious hardware, but, I think this really is the sort of experience we should be seeing at this stage. Back in the day, when PC games were really for PCs, the rate of advancement was so much faster.
--
"I cannot define the real problem, therefore I suspect there's no real problem, but I'm not sure there's no real problem."
Richard Feynman
"I cannot define the real problem, therefore I suspect there's no real problem, but I'm not sure there's no real problem."
Richard Feynman
February 7th, 2017, 03:48
That's not really that impressive to me, to be honest. Maybe because I'm watching on a large display or something. That video kind of proves your point in a weird way. Even games that are pushing major hardware and technical specs that don't really look all that much more impressive than others.
Guest
February 7th, 2017, 03:58
I think the video tops out at 720p, so probably looks a bit lacking on a 4K big screen. But if you look at the quality of the lighting, the volumetric effects, and the ability to move from planet scale down to a human scale, as an open world, I think it's mightily impressive. That's the Cryengine doing what it can do, when targeted to proper PC hardware.
--
"I cannot define the real problem, therefore I suspect there's no real problem, but I'm not sure there's no real problem."
Richard Feynman
"I cannot define the real problem, therefore I suspect there's no real problem, but I'm not sure there's no real problem."
Richard Feynman
February 7th, 2017, 04:03
Watching in 1080p. I think the thing I notice most with stuff like this is the lack of character the tech-pushing graphics usually have. I'm seeing a huge desert, spaceships that look like they could have come from any space game, nothing really memorable, IMO. Moving from space seamlessly to ground level *is* cool, but it doesn't do much for me if the rest of the game isn't impressing me.
Maybe if they showed a fantasy RPG that uses some of the tech here as you mention, I'd be more interested. Especially if the art style itself is more memorable.
Maybe if they showed a fantasy RPG that uses some of the tech here as you mention, I'd be more interested. Especially if the art style itself is more memorable.
Guest
February 7th, 2017, 04:07
Not to be too negative, so I'll point out something I do like. The large scale of the huge desert/planet. I always loved that from the Lord of the Ring movies, for example. A huge wide-shot that shows an incredibly large swamp area, or seeing Lonely Mountain in the distance in one of the scenes from one of the Hobbit movies.

I think scenes like that do add an epic sense of scale and are really cool. That goes a longer way than it really should. More of that in games would be cool.

I think scenes like that do add an epic sense of scale and are really cool. That goes a longer way than it really should. More of that in games would be cool.
Guest
February 7th, 2017, 04:16
Yeah, it claims to go up to 1080p, but I don't think the video quality scales much beyond 720p, and the compression is horrible.
I know what you're saying about artistry, and I agree that there's not much to see in that regard. But, if you can just look at the quality and scope of what the engine's doing, it's leagues ahead of anything else I've seen. If that were applied to a rich RPG world, it would be staggering.
Bear in mind, I'm constraining myself to what is actually feasible within current PC tech. I'm not looking at what my dream graphics would be like, but how much higher the standard of PC games could be, if studios targeted decent PCs, as once they did.
EDIT: Here's another short video of the PC-focused Unigine 2 engine.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tui5-x2i2zw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Slx9…HY0R_E-HdtvOz5
I know what you're saying about artistry, and I agree that there's not much to see in that regard. But, if you can just look at the quality and scope of what the engine's doing, it's leagues ahead of anything else I've seen. If that were applied to a rich RPG world, it would be staggering.
Bear in mind, I'm constraining myself to what is actually feasible within current PC tech. I'm not looking at what my dream graphics would be like, but how much higher the standard of PC games could be, if studios targeted decent PCs, as once they did.
EDIT: Here's another short video of the PC-focused Unigine 2 engine.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tui5-x2i2zw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Slx9…HY0R_E-HdtvOz5
--
"I cannot define the real problem, therefore I suspect there's no real problem, but I'm not sure there's no real problem."
Richard Feynman
"I cannot define the real problem, therefore I suspect there's no real problem, but I'm not sure there's no real problem."
Richard Feynman
Last edited by Ripper; February 7th, 2017 at 04:33.
February 7th, 2017, 04:38
Longer view distance and weather patterns would be cool. I think the most graphically impressive thing I've played thus far in terms of tech and I guess art-style as well has probably been Enderal. Haven't played Witcher 3 yet, and I'm a bit indifferent about what I've seen of it. That's more art-style related, though.
Enderal uses the 32-bit Skyrim engine but it looks pretty good on Ultra @ 4K. Not sure if there have been any others that were quite as nice as that one so far, that I've played, I mean.
Enderal uses the 32-bit Skyrim engine but it looks pretty good on Ultra @ 4K. Not sure if there have been any others that were quite as nice as that one so far, that I've played, I mean.
Guest
February 7th, 2017, 04:39
Well graphics just like combat are secondary to me when I play RPGs. Also based on Steam statistics most are using older hardware, and developers take notice of this.
Fact is when you develop games you must target every audience to maximize sales. Just take a look at Crysis for a bad example, and Metal Gear Solid V for a good one.
Kojima's Fox Engine scales great to every type of hardware available.
Fact is when you develop games you must target every audience to maximize sales. Just take a look at Crysis for a bad example, and Metal Gear Solid V for a good one.
Kojima's Fox Engine scales great to every type of hardware available.
--
“Opinions are like assholes, everybody's got one and everyone thinks everyone else's stinks.”
“Opinions are like assholes, everybody's got one and everyone thinks everyone else's stinks.”
Last edited by Couchpotato; February 7th, 2017 at 04:58.
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February 7th, 2017, 04:45
Originally Posted by CouchpotatoYep, same here, at least for the graphics. That's why I still play really old games, as I'm more fascinated about the gameplay than anything. I also come from the Atari/NES generation, and that taught us to use our imagination a lot.
Well graphics just like combat are secondary to me when I play RPGs.
Guest
February 7th, 2017, 04:46
I agree, but that's why I put it in the Off-Topic forum - to talk about graphics for their own sake. The question about the importance of graphics to RPGs is a different one, and I'd say they are not of paramount concern
With regard to Enderal and Witcher 3, I think they score highly in terms of art, but as engines targeted at very limited consoles, they really aren't that great. Good artistic choices cover a multitude of sins, but in many regards the graphics engines leave a lot to be desired, particularly in the area of realistic lighting, which is computationally expensive.
EDIT: To put it another way, if you turned those artists loose on a custom Cryengine like SC, or Unigine 2, targeting modern PCs, they would blow you away.
With regard to Enderal and Witcher 3, I think they score highly in terms of art, but as engines targeted at very limited consoles, they really aren't that great. Good artistic choices cover a multitude of sins, but in many regards the graphics engines leave a lot to be desired, particularly in the area of realistic lighting, which is computationally expensive.
EDIT: To put it another way, if you turned those artists loose on a custom Cryengine like SC, or Unigine 2, targeting modern PCs, they would blow you away.
--
"I cannot define the real problem, therefore I suspect there's no real problem, but I'm not sure there's no real problem."
Richard Feynman
"I cannot define the real problem, therefore I suspect there's no real problem, but I'm not sure there's no real problem."
Richard Feynman
Last edited by Ripper; February 7th, 2017 at 04:58.
February 7th, 2017, 04:59
I agree that Enderal rates high on art and style, and things like lighting aren't the strong point. I like that the draw distance is pretty solid, even if it is "covered" by clever level design, and they seem to have no noticeable pop-in at all. It also has a higher detail level than Skyrim and most other RPGs. Basically pushes the old Skyrim engine to its limit, I'd say.
I always appreciate a nice draw distance. I think that can add a bunch of good feels to an RPG as well. Are there any fantasy RPGs you'd say that are even better graphically?
I always appreciate a nice draw distance. I think that can add a bunch of good feels to an RPG as well. Are there any fantasy RPGs you'd say that are even better graphically?
Guest
February 7th, 2017, 05:07
No, not that I know of. It's something I've talked about with modders and devs - the idea of building a really modern PC RPG engine, open source and using something like the Pathfinder ruleset, that could then be used by anyone to make and sell campaign modules. Something somewhat niche, but that lets PC players really push their hardware.
Not something I could commit to for the moment, but I think it could be wonderful.
Not something I could commit to for the moment, but I think it could be wonderful.
--
"I cannot define the real problem, therefore I suspect there's no real problem, but I'm not sure there's no real problem."
Richard Feynman
"I cannot define the real problem, therefore I suspect there's no real problem, but I'm not sure there's no real problem."
Richard Feynman
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February 7th, 2017, 05:14
The annoying thing for me is that a pc only developer can do very well (like Blizzard) but so few seem motivated to pursue the market in a dedicated way. The idea seems to be if you get big enough now you are 'worthy' to do a console port. If devs could think beyond their new paycheck they would be developing and striving to push hardware and gameplay in new directions for interest/passion reasons alone.
February 7th, 2017, 05:18
As far as fantasy settings go, I haven't seen anything yet that surpasses The Witcher 3 graphically. Star Citizen looks amazing though, and I hope it gets finished sometime this decade.
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Guest
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February 7th, 2017, 05:55
Originally Posted by SilverThat's where I think there's a niche. There used to be studios that built great games for high-end PCs. People would work towards an upgrade just to play them - I'm thinking about some of the Origin games, Ultima Underworld and Wing Commander, and so on. It's interesting to look at the success that Star Citizen has had (financially, if not yet in terms of results), by targeting that PC high-end crowd who want a new Wing Commander. Naturally, the big publishers go for the mass market, leaving an opportunity.
The annoying thing for me is that a pc only developer can do very well (like Blizzard) but so few seem motivated to pursue the market in a dedicated way. The idea seems to be if you get big enough now you are 'worthy' to do a console port. If devs could think beyond their new paycheck they would be developing and striving to push hardware and gameplay in new directions for interest/passion reasons alone.
But, people underestimate the breadth of skills required to build great graphics. In fact, the engine itself is not the major problem - there's tons of people trying to use powerful engines, and finding that making them look as good as they could is beyond their skills. There's actually high-end PC engines that are open source, and capable of great results.
Here's a couple of examples from the opensource Panda3d engine, with Render Pipeline. You could pick that up, and do anything you like with it, right now.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SxTr08usog0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Ll1x61MB2M
But, you do also need great artists who have mastered the tech to the degree that they can fully express their vision. That's far beyond most indies and hobbyists. My thought is that we could bring together the proper range of skills to build a high-end PC RPG engine using this sort of tech, adding the interfaces, the ruleset, and the essential assets, and allow anyone to make games with it.
The advantage and incentive to the contributors (and everyone else) wishing to make their own high-quality PC games, would be that, once the communal effort on the engine is done, the actual game-making falls to the level of making a Skyrim mod (actually, much easier, because they have full access to the source code.) That is a huge difference than starting from scratch with the basic game engine, believe me! The likes of the Enderal team, and many others, would be free to make (and sell) their games with it.
--
"I cannot define the real problem, therefore I suspect there's no real problem, but I'm not sure there's no real problem."
Richard Feynman
"I cannot define the real problem, therefore I suspect there's no real problem, but I'm not sure there's no real problem."
Richard Feynman
February 7th, 2017, 06:01
I really want star citizen to succeed. They're pushing the envelope which I admire a lot. When it is someday ready I'm going to build the most kickass pc and play it on high details.
Imagine something like mass effect on that engine. Heck you could even pilot normandy properly. Or how about licensing babylon 5 or star trek…
Imagine something like mass effect on that engine. Heck you could even pilot normandy properly. Or how about licensing babylon 5 or star trek…
February 7th, 2017, 06:04
Originally Posted by DezYeah, baby - you know what I'm sayin'!
I really want star citizen to succeed. They're pushing the envelope which I admire a lot. When it is someday ready I'm going to buy build the most kicksass pc and play it on high details.![]()
Imagine something like mass effect on that engine. Heck you could even pilot normandy properly. Or how about licensing babylon 5 or star trek…![]()
--
"I cannot define the real problem, therefore I suspect there's no real problem, but I'm not sure there's no real problem."
Richard Feynman
"I cannot define the real problem, therefore I suspect there's no real problem, but I'm not sure there's no real problem."
Richard Feynman
February 7th, 2017, 06:12
Originally Posted by DezThe thing about space games, though, is that while piloting your ship on paper seems cool, it appears to be pretty boring in execution. You're floating through empty space with vast distances between interesting things, and then you get closer to a planet…and a bit closer…and closer…10 minutes later you're somewhere near the atmosphere…now you have to fly down to the surface…slowly..10 minutes later you're on the surface. I mean, space exploration is cool and a childhood dream of a lot of us I'm sure, but in execution it's really not that interesting. IMO.
Imagine something like mass effect on that engine. Heck you could even pilot normandy properly. Or how about licensing babylon 5 or star trek…![]()
Side mini-rant, I know.

Give me an RPG like KOTOR any day over a space flight simulator!
Guest
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February 7th, 2017, 06:26
Originally Posted by Fluent
The thing about space games, though, is that while piloting your ship on paper seems cool, it appears to be pretty boring in execution. You're floating through empty space with vast distances between interesting things, and then you get closer to a planet…and a bit closer…and closer…10 minutes later you're somewhere near the atmosphere…now you have to fly down to the surface…slowly..10 minutes later you're on the surface. I mean, space exploration is cool and a childhood dream of a lot of us I'm sure, but in execution it's really not that interesting. IMO.
Side mini-rant, I know.
Give me an RPG like KOTOR any day over a space flight simulator!![]()
Originally Posted by FluentI don't have a problem with going off-topic. I may even have done it myself, once or twice.
The thing about space games, though, is that while piloting your ship on paper seems cool, it appears to be pretty boring in execution. You're floating through empty space with vast distances between interesting things, and then you get closer to a planet…and a bit closer…and closer…10 minutes later you're somewhere near the atmosphere…now you have to fly down to the surface…slowly..10 minutes later you're on the surface. I mean, space exploration is cool and a childhood dream of a lot of us I'm sure, but in execution it's really not that interesting. IMO.
Side mini-rant, I know.
Give me an RPG like KOTOR any day over a space flight simulator!![]()
I know what you mean, and, in the current trend of more is better, I think the beauty of tighter experiences has suffered. Having said that, I find the huge expanses of freedom in a fully open world is extremely immersive. I would enjoy, for example, a Skyrim with a landscape that was a hundred times larger, just "because it was there". In such a game, I would make valuable maps and engaging people in conversations about places of interest much more significant, and some sort of fast travel would become more necessary.
I actually think it would be possible to have a very tight game experience, with tons of space between key points, purely for the sake of immersion. The "empty" space could still be useful to explore and enjoy, for hunting, resource gathering, random encounters, etc. One could also add interesting side quests that could occur dynamically, at any point one might be exploring.
--
"I cannot define the real problem, therefore I suspect there's no real problem, but I'm not sure there's no real problem."
Richard Feynman
"I cannot define the real problem, therefore I suspect there's no real problem, but I'm not sure there's no real problem."
Richard Feynman
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