Grimoire Support Group

Originally Posted by Fluent
I just think it's a different approach that leads to a different experience. I try and be open to different styles and experiences.

Yes, it's a different approach that means wasting a ton of time if you want to play specific characters.

It's fine that you're open - but it changes nothing about the result of this approach.

Lots of old-school games use this approach, because that was the norm back in the day.

Now, the norm is to allow players to customize stats within certain limits - and it's the norm because it has become the common preference.

People, generally, actually prefer not to waste time on this.

Originally Posted by NewDArt

Originally Posted by luj1

Originally Posted by NewDArt
If I'm to take your advice about Grimoire seriously - you really have to display a reasonable point of view.

Look dart, I'm not a salesman. You asked. I told you like it is. Didn't try to sugar coat it. If you didn't like Wizardry you won't like Grimoire.

Well, you're acting like a salesman

Originally Posted by luj1

Originally Posted by NewDArt
Why don't you give me a few examples of what's bad about Grimoire?

• Poor accessibility
• Visibility of information
• Some balance issues right now
• Hunger mechanic isn't implemented
• a better journal

They are non-issues for me, but I did my best. I'm sure there'll be more once I get beyond Avian Mountains.

The first two are the same.

That's it? Not fundamental issues or design flaws?

D'art I already gave you my answers. Apparently the only way to satisfy you is to give you what you want to hear. In that case simply opening Grimoire's steam page, selecting "negative reviews" and reading all the SJW "objective" opinions might do the trick. Much better than I could ever help you and I really have to be off to the gym

Originally Posted by luj1
D'art I already gave you my answers. Apparently the only way to satisfy you is to give you what you want to hear. In that case simply opening Grimoire's steam page, selecting "negative reviews" and reading all the SJW "objective" opinions might do the trick. Much better than I could ever help you and I really have to be off to the gym

What I want to hear is the same as it has always been.

Honest, informed and reasonable feedback.

I was testing to see if that was possible for you.

No game in the history of gaming as ever been without a few fundamental flaws, with the possible exception of Tic-Tac-Toe. Meaning, if someone is claiming that's not the case for a specific game - then we're talking useless feedback.

Well, useless to me.

Originally Posted by NewDArt
Yes, it's a different approach that means wasting a ton of time if you want to play specific characters.

It's fine that you're open - but it changes nothing about the result of this approach.

Lots of old-school games use this approach, because that was the norm back in the day.

Now, the norm is to allow players to customize stats within certain limits - and it's the norm because it has become the common preference.

People, generally, actually prefer not to waste time on this.

Have you tried not playing or planning specific characters, though? Or at least rolling a character that is not 100% Control Freak Optimized.

It can be an interesting experience, IMO.

Originally Posted by Fluent
Have you tried not playing or planning specific characters, though? Or at least rolling a character that is not 100% Control Freak Optimized.

It can be an interesting experience, IMO.

Yes, I've tried that countless times back in my PnP days.

I hate not playing characters I like playing.

Also, I greatly enjoy optimising within a balanced system. I hate letting random rolls dominate my performance and experience - as I consider that a useless and boring measure of skill.

That's why I always steer clear of games where random rolls dominate the scene.

Random rolls should be an element of the unpredictable to simulate reality within the boundaries of fun. It should not be used to curtail players.

Not in my opinion.

Originally Posted by Pongo
I like rolling characters with a random element. I guess that's my P&P background coming out.. It makes item hunting more interesting, eg when one of your characters that rolled a poor score finds an item that counters it. For example, in D&D the Gauntlets of Ogre Strength can be a godsend for fighters that rolled less than 18 strength, but if you can just select 18 at character creation you don't need it as much (except for non-fighters of course).
It's too early for me to say whether it is well handled in Grimoire (i haven't been able to play it since Saturday….) but random attribute rolls definitely don't concern me in principle.

Point buy systems almost always have an 'exponential' cost as stat goes up, so if you create a STR 18 character, the rest of the stats will be low, in fact, it's usually better to have it at 15-16, so an item like that is still useful.

Rolling characters is ok for P&P where the DM will say 'you can roll your character only X times'. In a computer game, it's basically a test of your patience how many hours you will dedicate to mindlessly click on the 'roll' button until you get high in all stats.

Any chance we could leave semi-unrelated discussions out of this thread and leave it for directly related hints, tips, gameplay advice for Grimoire?

just discovered that "dartagnan" is in the game
but it´s probably the old one

Originally Posted by mprod
just discovered that "dartagnan" is in the game but it´s probably the old one

….eh, what now?

The plot thickens…

well at least he is mentioned in the Cenotaph

• your characters who die and get resurrected lose 10 CON permanently
• if you don't cure your diseased characters, they soon start suffering from other conditions too

This is cool as fuck. Cleve you bastard.

Originally Posted by luj1
your characters who die and get resurrected lose 10 CON permanently
This is cool as fuck. Cleve you bastard.

I wouldn't call that cool as fuck. I'd call that time to reload.

Is there a way to counter this, like a Training computer similar to the one in Sanctuary which gives you accuracy, firearms and iron hand? And the chest always has Star Gauntlet, right? Is that gauntlet ammo easy to find in shops? My OCD is making me stress about wasting it on trash mobs.

Originally Posted by luj1

• your characters who die and get resurrected lose 10 CON permanently
• if you don't cure your diseased characters, they soon start suffering from other conditions too

This is cool as fuck. Cleve you bastard.

All in the spirit of DW Bradley. I once asked, in the compuserve forum for Wiz 7, if diseases could spread to other characters. DWB himself popped up and replied: "good idea, hadn't thought of that…"

Originally Posted by NewDArt
Now, the norm is to allow players to customize stats within certain limits - and it's the norm because it has become the common preference.

Yes it's a bit of pain rolling characters, but it is a lot quicker to get the kind of rolls you want than it was in Wiz 6&7. And there is some sort of hook to making your characters in this somewhat quirky way. As to random stats on level up, I'm in two minds - on the one hand it can be frustrating, but it does mix things up a bit if you are looking to change class or get the points for an advanced class, so everything isn't so cookie cutter as in modern games.

Originally Posted by SirJames
Good Fighters don't roll less than 18 STR!

Real fighters have an 18/00 strength.

Originally Posted by Roq
Yes it's a bit of pain rolling characters, but it is a lot quicker to get the kind of rolls you want than it was in Wiz 6&7. And there is some sort of hook to making your characters in this somewhat quirky way. As to random stats on level up, I'm in two minds - on the one hand it can be frustrating, but it does mix things up a bit if you are looking to change class or get the points for an advanced class, so everything isn't so cookie cutter as in modern games.

All of those are just excuses for bad game design.

Now, I'm not saying it's the end of the world - or you can't conjure up some elusive advantage to wasting your time - but it counts against the game all the same.

I guess the best I can say for that paradigm is that it's delightfully old-school in a nostalgic warmth sort of way.

Originally Posted by NewDArt
All of those are just excuses for bad game design.

Now, I'm not saying it's the end of the world - or you can't conjure up some elusive advantage to wasting your time - but it counts against the game all the same.

I guess the best I can say for that paradigm is that it's delightfully old-school in a nostalgic warmth sort of way.

it's somewhat the job of game designers to put some hurdles in the way of min/maxers so as to make it at least somewhat harder to make "perfect" builds. If as a designer you just leave the all slaying sword of awesomeness lieing around, it is very hard for gamers to stop themselves picking it up and removing any challenge from their game. So this rolling system is sort of designed to get you to accept a reasonable compromise rather than roll forever. I wouldn't say that is bad game design, it is very much in the spirit of Wiz 6&7. DWB's aversion to giving gamers anything for free is one of the distinctive things that made those games fun in the long run.

That's not to say Cleve has necessarily got that balance 100% throughout the game. We already know that some classes (bards etc.) are somewhat OP and in such a long game I fully expect that many parties will over level. Gamers are always trying to beat the system, but when you do, that can make the game a lot less interesting to play.

Originally Posted by Roq
it's somewhat the job of game designers to put some hurdles in the way of min/maxers so as to make it at least somewhat harder to make "perfect" builds. If as a designer you just leave the all slaying sword of awesomeness lieing around, it is very hard for gamers to stop themselves picking it up and removing any challenge from their game. So this rolling system is sort of designed to get you to accept a reasonable compromise rather than roll forever. I wouldn't say that is bad game design, it is very much in the spirit of Wiz 6&7. DWB's aversion to giving gamers anything for free is one of the distinctive things that made those games fun in the long run.

That's not to say Cleve has necessarily got that balance 100% throughout the game. We already know that some classes (bards etc.) are somewhat OP and in such a long game I fully expect that many parties will over level. Gamers are always trying to beat the system, but when you do, that can make the game a lot less interesting to play.

Sounds like even worse excuses for bad design to me

It's the "job" to put timewasters in the way of min maxers? Oh my.

Ok, sure.

Sounds like your patience eroded with years d'Art. It's a problem on your end rather than bad game design by any metric.