Abilities question

Originally Posted by Fluent
I heard they do that on purpose though to discourage super technical builds and keep some mystery etc behind the systems. I find it refreshing in a way, where I focus less on the minute details and more about just playing the game. But I know it will annoy some like you mentioned.

Its fine to have "mystery" in the system and let players discover how things works by trial and error. However for this to happen, the game need to be solid and bug free. Unfortunately, people don't trust PB since some skills are buggy and/or misleading, not just in Elex and past games as well.

The mystery comes from bad translation with inconsistencies. You can't call a skill charisma" at one spot then "personality" on another spot.
They need to fix wording at least a bit.

Originally Posted by joxer
The mystery comes from bad translation with inconsistencies. You can't call a skill charisma" at one spot then "personality" on another spot.
They need to fix wording at least a bit.

Fully agree. The whole 3x Personality skills -> pass "Charisma (3)" check feels rather odd.

I also think the wording of the various crafting skills could use an update, as it feels very strange for Cleric specific weapon crafting to only actually work on their swords and hammers, not their laser rifles (which is what I initially assumed was a typical Cleric weapon). It's not even that hard, just add the word "melee" to the description.

I don't mind not getting exact descriptions of how damage is calculated and so on, but that stuff is pretty basic.

I guess it just doesn't bother me much since I don't focus on the minute details and those are really small issues to me.

In terms of buggy skills, all I saw was one skill, Bookworm, being bugged before the patch, and it's since been fixed. Translation issues, maybe, but PB confirmed the stat descriptions are correct and working as intended. Calling Personality, Charisma, etc., is a tiny issue but shoot, I be doing the same thing when playing the game myself. I've called it everything from Conversation skills to Personality to Charisma.

Definitely basic stuff but minuscule to me as well. Your mileage may vary.

The character system was just done poorly like Maylander says. There's no excuse to not show things like exact XP and hit points. I still don't even know what the 'Attack Strength' skill does.

It's only a minor annoyance to me, but I hope they improve it.

I personally don't need or really care to see exact stats or hit points as I don't like getting overly technical with those in RPGs. Diablo 3 was like overkill in that regard. Games like Baldur's Gate had a choice where you could see exact HP numbers or just a bar for example, and I always play with just the bar.

But I'm fairly certain PB made a conscious decision not to include the advanced stats in the game, which they easily could have done, in an attempt to make it less analytical and more of just feeling your way through. I.e. that's why they use a bar instead of the exact numbers.

But I agree that Attack Strength and a couple other things should be better clarified. Attack Strength for one I figured only applied to melee since the description lists "strikes" which I took to meant melee attacks and also has a fist icon, but yeah, who knows on that one.

It's the inconsistency that's annoying. You get various potions with numbers ascribed to them, but no numbers for your character. Why bother even showing any numbers at all if you have no idea what your character's stats are? Healing amounts to guesswork.

Originally Posted by Fluent
But I'm fairly certain PB made a conscious decision not to include the advanced stats in the game, which they easily could have done, in an attempt to make it less analytical and more of just feeling your way through. I.e. that's why they use a bar instead of the exact numbers.

That's a rationalization if I've ever seen one. You need to take off the fanboy glasses for a minute.

ELEX is a fantastic game, probably GOTY for me without a doubt, but it's not perfect. The UI and character sheet are lacking. PB didn't intentionally make obtuse decisions because they thought it would be better. The skill descriptions are poor in some cases, and there's no way that was a conscious choice. In all likelihood, it's a translation issue.

Originally Posted by JDR13
That's a rationalization if I've ever seen one. You need to take off the fanboy glasses for a minute.

ELEX is a fantastic game, probably GOTY for me without a doubt, but it's not perfect. The UI and character sheet are lacking. PB didn't intentionally make obtuse decisions because they thought it would be better. The skill descriptions are poor in some cases, and there's no way that was a conscious choice. In all likelihood, it's a translation issue.

Dude, I'm not saying this because I'm a fanboy. There are plenty of goofy things I'd improve in the game. Yes, some of the descriptions are lacking, I agreed with that. Some of them like Attack Strength are not clear at all and should be improved. I'm talking about the choice to not add exactly what the Abilities do statistically in the descriptions. That, IMO, is a conscious design decision.

Do you honestly believe they could not add those numbers to the UI? If that's what you think then hey, more power to ya, you might be right but I disagree. I believe they did that for a reason. I just don't think PB would leave something like that out unless they specifically wanted to. They are not amateur developers.

Originally Posted by DPB
It's the inconsistency that's annoying. You get various potions with numbers ascribed to them, but no numbers for your character. Why bother even showing any numbers at all if you have no idea what your character's stats are? Healing amounts to guesswork.

That's true, but the same is true about Baldur's Gate, is it not? That game also had bars for HP (with an option to turn on exact HP numbers.) Why would they give that specific option in Baldur's Gate if not for the reason I gave?

The idea behind it is that less numbers = more immersive. It's not a mistake but a design choice, IMO.

Originally Posted by Fluent
Dude, I'm not saying this because I'm a fanboy. There are plenty of goofy things I'd improve in the game. Yes, some of the descriptions are lacking, I agreed with that. Some of them like Attack Strength are not clear at all and should be improved. I'm talking about the choice to not add exactly what the Abilities do statistically in the descriptions. That, IMO, is a conscious design decision.

Do you honestly believe they could not add those numbers to the UI? If that's what you think then hey, more power to ya, you might be right but I disagree. I believe they did that for a reason. I just don't think PB would leave something like that out unless they specifically wanted to. They are not amateur developers.

I think Elex will also be GOTY for me as well but not showing certain numbers (HP, XP, total stats etc) on the UI is not a design decision and they certainly didn't do it for a reason! Its poor rookie mistake and lack of QA team.

Look PB are great developers at at designing a great RPG world. May be the best there is but they certainly are amateur when it comes to QA and polish and all that. This is clearly demonstrated by the elex potion bug!

Originally Posted by lostforever
I think Elex will also be GOTY for me as well but not showing certain numbers (HP, XP, total stats etc) on the UI is not a design decision and they certainly didn't do it for a reason! Its poor rookie mistake and lack of QA team.

That's your opinion and I disagree. Again, why would Baldur's Gate give an option between a bar and exact HP numbers? It's a design choice. ELEX just doesn't give you an option, they chose to not display every pertinent stat.

And if it is a rookie mistake then why didn't they patch it yet? They could easily do it, it's as simple as adding a few extra bits of text to the UI.

Originally Posted by Fluent
Do you honestly believe they could not add those numbers to the UI? If that's what you think then hey, more power to ya, you might be right but I disagree. I believe they did that for a reason. I just don't think PB would leave something like that out unless they specifically wanted to. They are not amateur developers.

It was a poor design decision. It's obvious to those of us who can admit it.

Originally Posted by JDR13
It was a poor design decision. It's obvious to those of us who can admit it.

At least you admitted it was a decision and not a mistake. That is my point all along. And I disagree that it's a poor design decision as I play Baldur's Gate with HP numbers OFF.

I can see why people who need total control and want to ultra analyze the game would be ticked off though.

Originally Posted by Fluent
At least you admitted it was a decision and not a mistake. That is my point all along. And I disagree that it's a poor design decision as I play Baldur's Gate with HP numbers OFF.

I can see why people who need total control and want to ultra analyze the game would be ticked off though.

Are you really that obtuse? I never said it was a mistake.

Doesn't it seem odd to you that you're literally the only person who views it that way?

Dude, who cares. You called me a fanboy because you didn't understand what I was saying. You continue to misunderstand so there's no point to argue over something so stupid. @lostforever said it was a mistake and I disagree. Not every stat/number needs to be visible and there are other hidden stats in ELEX that aren't shown. Obviously PB designed it that way for a reason and agree with me. It wasn't some oversight on their part, sheesh.

To see the exact opposite type of design, see Diablo 3. Every minute number is shown in that game. That is not what PB was trying to do with their design, simple. I didn't think this would be a hugely controversial point I was making.

Ah, so now you know PB personally and have spoken with them?

Carry on.

Originally Posted by JDR13
Ah, so now you know PB personally and have spoken with them?

Carry on.

Maybe I do, and maybe I have…

Nah but, I was thinking about this specific thing in the past. Modern UI design that includes, IMO, too many stats and cold numbers. I feel like modern UIs aim too far towards efficiency and information and sacrifice feel and intuitiveness. I liked when UI's looked like Arcanum's or Baldur's Gate. They may not have had every piece of information in them but they had more feel to them. Just my opinion. That's kind of what I was getting at with this mini-rant/tangent.

Sorry for the side tracking. Carry on.

Except the way they did the character sheet and abilities is not very intuitive. That's the point most of us are trying to make.

Providing less information, or making the information vague, does not make something more intuitive.

Originally Posted by JDR13
Except the way they did the character sheet and abilities is not very intuitive. That's the point most of us are trying to make.

Providing less information, or making the information vague, does not make something more intuitive.

Nah, it doesn't. But overloading with information isn't elegant either. All developers have to find a balance that they're happy with for their games.

I wouldn't call the Abilities list non-intuitive though. Some of the descriptions need more detail or easier to understand details as we've all agreed on, but the lists themselves and way they are laid out are pretty intuitive to me.

And for the record I don't think every stat and/or hidden stat needs to be seen. In a weird way I actually prefer not to know the specifics, and I avoid them at all costs now for new RPGs I play. I like just winging it and going with the flow but I am also crazy like that.