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October 5th, 2019, 16:30
3CR has reviewed the tactical RPG WARSAW:

Review: Warsaw is Dour, Crushingly Difficult, and Often Just Soul-Crushing

During World War II, when the Soviets were finally pushing the German forces back, an uprising in Poland was getting ready to kick off. The exiled Polish government gave the go ahead for the local paramilitary forces in Warsaw--known as the "Home Army." It was a ragtag group of freedom fighters. While they would be no match for the Germans occupying the Polish capitol, the Home Army only planned to fight for a few days, at which point Soviet forces would be there and Warsaw would be liberated. That outside help never came as the Soviets intentionally left the Home Army to fend for themselves, and eventually, despite the passion and some of the heaviest fighting the German forces ever faced, the Home Army fell. Warsaw is a game that depicts these events, and you'll experience it from the narrow perspective of a group of freedom fighters.

[…]

Warsaw is crushingly difficult, and often just soul-crushing. It depicts a war you aren't really supposed to win. Unfortunately, that doesn't really translate into fun, and despite its important depiction of a notable historic event, and beautiful art, it's such a dour, depressing game.

Score: 3.5/5
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October 5th, 2019, 17:44
Yeah, that's what I'm looking for - a game that's insanely difficult and depressing.
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October 6th, 2019, 10:54
Another case.

Watching streamers, by their own admission, this vid product is rather easy, even too easy.

All it takes is a basic knowledge of fundamental UgoIgo metagame. Nothing fancy.

Streaming has this advantage, players demonstrate.

It leaves no doubt, when assessing their decision pattern, streamers have that basic knowledge. Nothing brilliant, they have though that basic knowledge.

No specific knowledge of the product, they have been playing since release. And that basic knowledge allows them to stroll through this vid product.

Just watched a streamer who had an advanced session, he suffered his first casualty. Out of care
He disengaged, stopped paying attention and got his first loss.

Fights stack. Nothing wrong with repetition in gaming unless there is no stake attached to it. Which is the case in this vid product. Fights stack, by applying basic UgoIgo metagame knowledge, their outcome is certain. They also do not demand to renew decision patterns. Always the same thing.

And then, those claims about difficulty. This product would be harrowingly difficult.

Several explanations to that claim: players do not know basic metagames associated to UgoIgo then they lack that general, generic knowledge to perform.
This explanation was rejected for years because it means that players who played hundreds of UgoIgo products still do not know a basic metagame.
Now not so sure.

Another explanation is that they do not like UgoIgo and can not bear doing what it takes to perform.
This would mean that players who keep screaming UgoIgo actually loathe it. A possibility.

For a game, these two explanations make no sense.

It remains: this product that is easy to play is perceived as difficult by players who complain about it.

The end result is known: the easiness will be increased.
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October 6th, 2019, 14:16
Lol, such a hate for turn based. I don't know many players, but those playing turn based are a lot more interesting, go figure.
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October 6th, 2019, 16:00
I like what I'm hearing about this one, definitely one I'm hoping to hear and read more about. Mixing World War Two combat up in a rpg is just the kind of thing that will eventually draw me in.
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October 6th, 2019, 21:28
Just watching the screens I had my doubts, seemingly another clone that seems to heavily "borrow" just about everything from Darkest dungeon, including art-style. But after watching Marbozir's stream this might interest me more than DD. It's definitely not as polished as DD, but I like it and prefer the WWII setting.
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October 7th, 2019, 13:19
Originally Posted by Dasale View Post
Lol, such a hate for turn based. I don't know many players, but those playing turn based are a lot more interesting, go figure.
Board games, tabletop games are usually turn based, even though they often prefer another structure than UgoIgo because board games might be played by multiple players and UgoIgo do not favour a high level of interaction between players.

So hate would be the explanation.

Streamers play the vid product, they showcase it as an easy product to play, they admit it is an easy product to play.

Reporting this would be due to hate on UgoIgo.

As stated already, it might be that UgoIgo players do not love that much UgoIgo they do not bother to learn how to play it half decently.

Haters gonna hate.
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October 7th, 2019, 20:56
Your comment is non sense, it's on something titled:

Warsaw is Dour, Crushingly Difficult, and Often Just Soul-Crushing.
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October 7th, 2019, 21:25
I don't think so. I bet it's a comment on some shady Dailymotion 18+ video.
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October 8th, 2019, 00:16
RPD also found it rather gruelling:
https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/201…warsaw-review/
These battles are, at times, so utterly gruelling that I occasionally caught myself wanting to take a break to play Darkest Dungeon, a game I don’t enjoy, as some sort of palate cleanser. Even after a recent patch that reduced enemy health, both sides have about 25% more health than seems reasonable or advisable.
I'm still interested in it, but I'll wait for a sale.
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October 8th, 2019, 06:38
Often you know you'll win but you don't have the ammo to finish the last guy off. Lack of ammo is one thing that tends to drag these battles and they become boring fast.
There are also some OP skills, when you level up your medic there's a skill where she basically heals hearself and adjacent members each turn by more the Germans can actually hurt you. With her it's basically impossible to lose a member let alone a battle.
My last gripe is terrible AI. Hopefully they'll address these issues.
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October 8th, 2019, 12:42
Gruelling is another story. It does not require to be difficult to be gruelling.
Battles stack up, they are simple to solve, same patterns each time.

Gruelling fits with tedious, which is the personal qualifier used to depict this kind of vid products.

Originally Posted by Dasale View Post
Your comment is non sense, it's on something titled:

Warsaw is Dour, Crushingly Difficult, and Often Just Soul-Crushing.
That is indeed the title.

Reporting that streamers showcase the product to be easy is topical.
Wondering how it comes that players who claim love for UgoIgo fail to perform in this product up to finding it crushingly difficult is topical.

Streamers have this advantage: they exhibit their quality of play. No doubt about them, they know the basics of UgoIgo metagame.

What is non sense is to the attribution of the report to hate for UgoIgo.

Streamers who play this product and show it as easy do not hate on UgoIgo, they love UgoIgo enough to learn its basics.

Others, those who keep depicting it as difficult, well, there's a question mark.
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October 9th, 2019, 20:50
Originally Posted by joxer View Post
I don't think so. I bet it's a comment on some shady Dailymotion 18+ video.
If it is then it's non sense anyway because it's not said, nor did any link.
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October 9th, 2019, 20:52
Originally Posted by ChienAboyeur View Post
All it takes is a basic knowledge of fundamental UgoIgo metagame. Nothing fancy.
You want I argue with such stupid comment? Lol, I just wanted comment your usual blinded hate against turn based, nothing else.

EDIT: If you can't bear "hate" replace with "vomiting" it fits.
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October 10th, 2019, 12:42
There is nothing to comment about because, once again, board games, tabletop games are usually turn based (even a lot of them move away from UgoIgo structuring for the lack of interaction between players)

It remains: this vid product is perceived as difficult when it is not as shown (and admitted) by streamers.

Two lines of explanation were provided. Others are welcome.
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October 10th, 2019, 18:02
Originally Posted by ChienAboyeur View Post
Two lines of explanation were provided. Others are welcome.
The only explanation is that you're the first accidental sentient AI roaming the web.
You're clearly still learning how to interact with us meatbags and I, for one, appreciate the effort.
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October 12th, 2019, 12:04
Make comment meaning players enjoying tun based are just idiots enjoying easy automatic play is an absurdity.

What's a lot more interesting is why some people are obsessed by it up to make disconnected posts. There's some personal problems hidden here. Is it inferiority complex, not like turn based and think argue turn based lovers are idiots will make him smarter?

I wonder.
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October 12th, 2019, 12:46
The title of the article is

Warsaw is Dour, Crushingly Difficult, and Often Just Soul-Crushing.
It does not read like an enjoyed experience.

There is no disconnection. The connection is made clear enough, the article reports this vid product as crushingly difficult while streamers demonstrate it as easy.

Then an attempt to explain the gap between the two positions.

Turn based, including UgoIgo type, come in various flavours of difficulty, they might be easy as they might be hard.

UgoIgo is nothing of a miracle, UgoIgo does not make a game, it does not ensure a good game and it does not mean hard.


The case rests: this vid product is easy, and yet depicted as hard by players.
There is an attempt to explain this situation.

Instead of seeking a reason for making that simple observation other than it is a simple and straightforward observation to make (third time is a the charm, board games, tabletop games are usually turn based even though less and less UgoIgo as it restricts interactions between players), providing an alternate explanation to this situation would work wonders.

Originally Posted by Winterfart View Post
The only explanation is that you're the first accidental sentient AI roaming the web.
You're clearly still learning how to interact with us meatbags and I, for one, appreciate the effort.
There is nothing like us.
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October 12th, 2019, 17:23
The problem of difference between experts in anything and amateurs is no way restricted to game difficulty, it's a problem in art and any entertainment. It's a core problem in reviewing anything.

Judge difficulty on base of watching a let's play is very weird, there's many problems with that:
- Turn based or not, many streamers are awfully bad at the games they let's play, and some streamers are playing much better than a large majority of players really playing the game.
- Many streamers do a let's play only after to have master roughly well the game, this doesn't reflect the difficulty experience of most players.
- No streamer can explain really their thinking process, and this problem is largely aggravated with turn based that will often involve more thinking. It means you watch a let's play of a game for which you are totally incompetent, you see actions and you understand nothing or not much, it seems easy but it's an illusion coming from your total lack of knowledge of the game you never played.
- There are difficulty levels, even if not many game can really tune many difficulty levels, it's still a source of divergence on difficulty appreciation.
- Many let's play of turn based will stop quickly, a lot because not enough viewers, but still it's not showing yet if the streamer is really good at playing the game nor give any clue, right or wrong, on the difficulty level.

For difficulty, the problem in any video game is it's mainly a psychological feeling, from what it comes and how it can be increased or decreased is a wide topic. It's no way a shared feeling, some elements can work with some players to increase their difficulty feeling, but the same elements won't work for some other players. The problem is certainly different for real time and turn based, but mainly because real time have time and speed to try tune better a difficulty, otherwise it's the same problems.

For the article and its title, it's like most review, it's certainly a collection of crap and few good points. How much competent is the reviewer, how much he wanted play the game he had to review, how much time he played the game before review it, many more.

EDIT: I can't see any single let's play that go much far, which means none cover the topic of article comment on difficulty, win a campaign. Seeing the low number of viewers, pretty sure most of those streamers will give up before to loose. It's one more negative against weird comments based on let's play.
Last edited by Dasale; October 12th, 2019 at 17:49.
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October 12th, 2019, 17:49
Streamers are specific video makers. Nothing to do with let's play videos.

Streamers who exposed this vid product as easy played it from release. They had no prior experience in it, simply a UgoIgo background and an obvious knowledge of metagames associated to UgoIgo.

The issue is not limited to this review or this vid product by the way. Other players reported this product as difficult.
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