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Just looking at the example you gave, I think it must be noted that there were 12 grateful and supportive comments first, and then one that was a bit pissy. I think on an interwebz forum, you've got to take those 12-1 wins!

Originally Posted by Ripper
Just looking at the example you gave, I think it must be noted that there were 12 grateful and supportive comments first, and then one that was a bit pissy. I think on an interwebz forum, you've got to take those 12-1 wins!

It's quality over quantity that counts

I gave that example because it was the last straw. It was just after a thread on the camera feature that didn't start too well, and a few others before in which the comments went a bit 'meh'. Maybe it was just a bad period and people were feeling a bit down and cranky.

Originally Posted by Redglyph
I gave that example because it was the last straw. It was just after a thread on the camera feature that didn't start too well, and a few others before in which the comments went a bit 'meh'. Maybe it was just a bad period and people were feeling a bit down and cranky.

If comments sometimes being a bit "meh" is enough for someone to leave a forum, I think that shows more of an issue with the person than the forum.

Originally Posted by Redglyph
It's quality over quantity that counts

I gave that example because it was the last straw. It was just after a thread on the camera feature that didn't start too well, and a few others before in which the comments went a bit 'meh'. Maybe it was just a bad period and people were feeling a bit down and cranky.

Yeah I remember that thread, My replies were not that positive and still stick by what I wrote. I didn't attack Purple it was the other-way around. She didn't like my opinion.

My beef was modders did everything the developer claimed was new.

I hate posts where you have to wade through 15 disclaimers trying to make every person reading happy until you find someones opinion.

Life is too short. State your opinion. Grow a spine. Own it. Don't be an asshole about it. Don't attack someone with it.

And for those that feel attacked when reading someones opinion. If you can't get over it and feel like you absolutely must be affected by it, then SAY you feel attacked and let them respond. Generally they will say they were not attacking you. Take their clarification at face value and walk away. Don't try and get them to recant their opinion.

Enough with the passive aggressive bullshit. For a generation where everyone says they want to be individually identified and recognized they sure want everyone to have generic and similar opinions and cater to everyone all of the time.

I value all you twits, regardless if I don't like your opinion.

Originally Posted by Wisdom
I hate posts where you have to wade through 15 disclaimers trying to make every person reading happy until you find someones opinion.

Life is too short. State your opinion. Grow a spine. Own it. Don't be an asshole about it. Don't attack someone with it.

And for those that feel attacked when reading someones opinion. If you can't get over it and feel like you absolutely must be affected by it, then SAY you feel attacked and let them respond. Generally they will say they were not attacking you. Take their clarification at face value and walk away. Don't try and get them to recant their opinion.

Enough with the passive aggressive bullshit. For a generation where everyone says they want to be individually identified and recognized they sure want everyone to have generic and similar opinions and cater to everyone all of the time.

I value all you twits, regardless if I don't like your opinion.

Yeah, pretty much - though there's always room for a more loving approach

Not that I'm great at that myself, but I find I probably should be.

But, definitely more upfront and honest communication than too much "adaption" and passive aggressive stuff that serves no constructive purpose.

I see my opinion is definitely not popular so I'll stop trying to give my point of view. If what you need is point at something that went wrong then pat yourselves on the back saying you were right and the other was wrong without trying to understand, we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

Originally Posted by Redglyph
I see my opinion is definitely not popular so I'll stop trying to give my point of view. We'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

Well, that's an unfortunate reaction.

I mean, I'm sort of the avatar of the unpopular opinion - but I never felt that was a bad thing.

Certainly around here, where I'm one of the very, very few people who's a giant fan of certain "mainstream" RPGs - which used to be almost sinful on the Watch. I think people have wised up a bit, though

Just because we don't agree about something doesn't mean your opinion isn't "popular" - or that you should necessarily stop making your point.

Unless you feel you've already made it as effectively you can, of course.

I certainly don't mind disagreement - and, as I said, I'm very, very used to it.

In any case, I think it's true for all our points of view that none of us want to - or actively support, hurting each other - or making some people feel bad about themselves for having another opinion.

If nothing else, I hope that much is understood.

Originally Posted by Redglyph
I see my opinion is definitely not popular so I'll stop trying to give my point of view. If what you need is point at something that went wrong then pat yourselves on the back saying you were right and the other was wrong without trying to understand, we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

I'm all in favour of trying to understand where people are coming from, and certainly there are some days when I see a selection of comments on here that make me facedesk.



All I'm saying is let's hold on, and everyone stop leaving for a minute! (A bit ironic that the last person to upset Purple has also since left in disgust.) Let's just take a step back and look at things in a balanced way. I think there are far more nice, reasonable around here. If you happen to hit a day when the arse-trumpets are in full chorus, just take a break for a while.

Originally Posted by DArtagnan
Well, that's an unfortunate reaction.

I mean, I'm sort of the avatar of the unpopular opinion - but I never felt that was a bad thing.

Certainly around here, where I'm one of the very, very few people who's a giant fan of certain "mainstream" RPGs - which used to be almost sinful on the Watch. I think people have wised up a bit, though

Just because we don't agree about something doesn't mean your opinion isn't "popular" - or that you should necessarily stop making your point.

Unless you feel you've already made it as effectively you can, of course.

I certainly don't mind disagreement - and, as I said, I'm very, very used to it.

In any case, I think it's true for all our points of view that none of us want to - or actively support, hurting each other - or making some people feel bad about themselves for having another opinion.

If nothing else, I hope that much is understood.

Not unfortunate, I just feel it's pointless for me to push the point further, but I can live with that, it's perfectly fine.

Either I was completely wrong saying it's worth understanding a problem when it happens, or I was wrong believing people are ready to go half way sometimes so it happens less often. Or I'm just bad at arguing

In any case, I have the feeling we're entrenched in our position and it's better to just acknowledge we have different opinions, rather than making it worse.

I've been here for too long to make someone else make me leave.

I tend to agree with DA though. I doubt most people purposefully try to annoy others. We mostly have people who share their opinions, sometimes strongly. Doesn't mean your opinion is less valid. It might just mean you're in the minority.

If it gets too much for you, just take a break from the Internets.
It isn't worth stressing about random strangers and their opinions.

My tuppence.

Originally Posted by Redglyph
Not unfortunate, I just feel it's pointless for me to push the point further, but I can live with that, it's perfectly fine.

Either I was completely wrong saying it's worth understanding a problem when it happens, or I was wrong believing people are ready to go half way sometimes so it happens less often. Or I'm just bad at arguing

In any case, I have the feeling we're entrenched in our position and it's better to just acknowledge we have different opinions, rather than making it worse.

Let me rephrase that: *I* think it's unfortunate

You certainly seem entrenched in your position (I guess I must seem that way, too) - and, as such, you're probably right that it's not too worthwhile to try and reach each other in this way.

Originally Posted by DArtagnan
Let me rephrase that: *I* think it's unfortunate

You certainly seem entrenched in your position (I guess I must seem that way, too) - and, as such, you're probably right that it's not too worthwhile to try and reach each other in this way.

Well, isn't it usually the mutual impression that the other is wrong and doesn't let go? We hadn't made much progress here though, the person who left was still considered too sensitive and wrong for leaving, and I was still trying to say it was too convenient as conclusion and one doesn't leave after what, 14 years? without a good reason. So time to let it rest.

I wasn't targeting anyone nor you in particular, by the way, you haven't even brought up the subject back in this thread. It's also the recollection of past discussions, not just this one.

Originally Posted by Pladio
I've been here for too long to make someone else make me leave.

I tend to agree with DA though. I doubt most people purposefully try to annoy others. We mostly have people who share their opinions, sometimes strongly. Doesn't mean your opinion is less valid. It might just mean you're in the minority.

If it gets too much for you, just take a break from the Internets.
It isn't worth stressing about random strangers and their opinions.

My tuppence.

I certainly hope it's not on purpose! I didn't say that, and we certainly should speak our mind, discuss and jest. I was just saying that, for this as for everything, there are slippery slopes and easy misunderstandings.

Other people left too, or were about too. But yeah, I agree with you, taking a break is usually the best solution.

Originally Posted by Redglyph
Well, isn't it usually the mutual impression that the other is wrong and doesn't let go?

Unfortunately, yes. I don't think matters are helped much by having the exchange be public - as we all know the horror that is being wrong in front of a bunch of mostly strange people

We hadn't made much progress here though, the person who left was still considered too sensitive and wrong for leaving, and I was still trying to say it was too convenient as conclusion and one doesn't leave after what, 14 years? without a good reason. So time to let it rest.

That's fair enough - I've already accepted it. I still think there's the potential for getting a little closer - as I sense a certain measure of misunderstanding, certainly when it comes to my position.

But let's just let it be for now

I wasn't targeting anyone nor you in particular, by the way, you haven't even brought up the subject back in this thread. It's also the recollection of past discussions, not just this one.

I see, I didn't really consider that.

We've had many such discussions over the years, though - with many different participants.

The "entrenched" positions haven't changed all that much, though. Which is probably why I think people are closer to each other than it might seem, which is the part that I think might be helpful to establish.

But it can wait until it's inevitably refreshed via some other example down the line

Originally Posted by Redglyph
I certainly hope it's not on purpose! I didn't say that, and we certainly should speak our mind, discuss and jest. I was just saying that, for this as for everything, there are slippery slopes and easy misunderstandings.



Other people left too, or were about too. But yeah, I agree with you, taking a break is usually the best solution.

I think people also tend to change with time. This forum may suit you for 3 years and then you may get tired of it.

I'm sure many of the leavers just had different lives 10 years ago. I certainly did.

When I joined the Watch I was a high school student. I now have years of work experience, a wife and a kid. I have less time to play and even less time to post.

So I think people lose patience with things they may have been OK with years ago.

I used to spend ages on the politics forums arguing with the likes of dte and prime junta. Those times have gone.

I prefer reading in depth reviews by purple and lackblogger now even for games I may never end up playing than just discuss politics ad infinitum.



All I'm saying is, we are talking about games, so even if people have different opinions and say so strongly and argue with you. Don't forget they are games. We're not talking about killing your family. Slippery slopes can't go that far. Right?

Originally Posted by Pladio
I now have years of work experience, a wife and a kid.

I knew you had a wife, but didn't know about the kid. Congrats

Originally Posted by Wisdom
I knew you had a wife, but didn't know about the kid. Congrats

Thanks

Originally Posted by Redglyph
My perception is that much is lost in translation when a message is posted. We know that most of the content is in the tone of the voice and the body language, not the actual words, and that content is not in a written post. It's too easy to write something that looks abrasive, or to misinterpret humour as something abrasive. Or to have both at the same time.

It's only easy for people who are not able to sensitively work with words.

One of my current bigger prejudices is that more extrovert people are more insensitive with words - and that introvert people are more sensitive towards what words emit.

Words can emit a lot - you just need to be sensitive enough - or well enough trained - to see it.

Me, I use words often for satire. I create images by doing satirical over-the-top replies.

I often mock communication in the way as blood fountains in Conan Online were mocking any sensitive approrach to the human body : Over-the top violence is mateched by my over-the-top satire. In one aspect, both are equal. but some people notice the one thing, but not the other.

I'm not doing hate-speech, which is in my opinion a serious cancer in modern communications. Something gone very wrong in the search for attention.

Satire is something that can make people think : Irritation is what pushes people out of their shoes. And meanwhile they are finding their shoes back, they might actually feel with their toes how the floor actually feels.


This all doesn't mean that I believe that there are people here who are saints.
There are indeen in my very personal opinion people here who are imho very insensitive. And, whaz's worse, they either don't notice, or they do it consciously.

Modern communication in forums and on the nowadays rather "antisocial media" has become so mjuch abrasive in places that it is ometimes better to a) withdraw or to b) build a wall around the own self.

The more aggressive = the more attention. Soime people like to bully people out of something - and maybe just to get a) more attention or b) remain as the winners of a domination game.

Discussions have often become domination games in forums - especially in MMO forums.
This kind of "communication game" is anywhere in forums, though. Also in the Watch. Which I see by the fact that people leave this forum, and those who were argueing against them remain. "I won !"

Originally Posted by Alrik Fassbauer
It's only easy for people who are not able to sensitively work with words.

One of my current bigger prejudices is that more extrovert people are more insensitive with words - and that introvert people are more sensitive towards what words emit.

Words can emit a lot - you just need to be sensitive enough - or well enough trained - to see it.

I have a counter-proposal They can transmit a lot, but

1) even when mastering subtle gradation, they won't be able to bring all the nuances of body language and intonation, unless you convey it with more words, or even extra sentences. Many people don't like to write much, and even less to read long texts, so they tend to expedite their idea without realizing how it will look from the other side,

2) both writer and reader must be very good at it and attentive,

3) it probably requires both to know each other well enough to make the most of it (as you mentioned in not so many words). For example, if I know you are prone to use satire and very respectful of other people, I'll see that an apparent mockery is likely an invitation to reflect on something amusing. If I don't know you, I may interpret that as sarcasm and get offended, or as criticism and over-correct.