Dragon Age - Might Not Catch with Console Gamers

Originally Posted by Prime Junta
Good game, but where were the creative risks?

Well it was merely a suggestion, hence the question mark. There certainly wasn't anything unique about the gameplay mechanics, but the setting was something of a novelty.

Thanks for your insights, Patrick. It's good to know there are still pockets of sanity in this developer-gone-mad world.

I can only imagine the tremendous willpower and determination it must take in order for a small group of champions to stand up and fight for RPG goodness in the face of throngs of corporate sellouts, the tension in the halls as rival gangs of developers strut through each other's office turf on their way to project meetings amidst the detritus and graffiti. You guys are all going need to take a break after this one, I'm sure.

I'll be plunking down my money for Dragon Age. You’ve earned it.

Jade used a non-European fantasy setting and was the team's first attempt at an action RPG, using collision detection and twitch-based gameplay. I'd consider both of those risks.

I actually liked jade empire for what its worth…

Didn't like Jade Empire, the worst Bioware game I have played.
Don't even remember much of it now, just that I didn't like it much. To linear and I didn't like the city structure, though that might just be the asian theme that I didn't like. The people were to generic, remember that it irritated me that I couldn't tell a guard from a civilian just by looking at them.
Atleast in some cases.

So far DA:O looks good though. Looking forward to it.

Originally Posted by PatrickWeekes
Jade used a non-European fantasy setting and was the team's first attempt at an action RPG, using collision detection and twitch-based gameplay. I'd consider both of those risks.

I'm sorry, but when you're doing things that are perfectly common in other games--and which other games do light-years better, by the way, twitch-based gameplay, non-European setting and all--it's not much of a risk. It's even less of one when you recycle your own plot and characters with such avidity (and even then, with less depth than usual: a true feat. Even some people who adore Bioware writing think the joinable NPCs in Jade Empire have all the dimension of a tissue paper). Maybe when Bioware spits out a game with remotely challenging combat and non-juvenile writing, we'll talk about risks, eh?

Edit: Not worth it.

I found alot of the characters in their starwars games to be quite interesting…I'm really curious what games you have been playing with the deep characters you talk about…

Strangely enough, I recently realised that, I think, Jade Empire was better than Mass Effect. To me. I was surprised by this sudden realisation, but I suppose that the writing and characters were somehow more interesting, even though we've seen it all before.

As to the MTV dude's comment… I gotta admit, I smiled when I read that. Let's hope that this is a good omen.

I was playing Jade Empire until Drakensang kind of interrupted me.

I found it quite nice, but never made it far outside the very first town.

What I actually liked, was that it was so dialog-heavy. I like reading a lot (in contrast to the action generation), so I enjoyed it very much.

I still wonder whether it'll be that dialog-heavy throughout the whole game … it ain't an "action" game for no reason …

Originally Posted by rune_74
Edit: Not worth it.

I found alot of the characters in their starwars games to be quite interesting…

I guess you're fond of stereotypes? Distinct from archetypes, of course: archetypal characters are recognizable, but can still be well-executed. Stereotypical stock characters which act identical to every other incarnation of themselves are… well, Bioware's forte. I admit, Joker was pretty good. Pity he's someone else's character. Gosh, I know imitation's flattery and everything, but I don't think Joss Whedon would be that flattered.

I'm really curious what games you have been playing with the deep characters you talk about…

I'm curious what games you've been playing (or not playing, perhaps) that make you think Bioware's writing is any good.

Regardless of whether one believes that Jade Empire was done well, the things I mentioned were risks. A company that doesn't do twitch suddenly doing a twitch game? That's a risk. As it turned out, combat was one of the things often pointed to as a weakness in Jade, so that risk didn't pan out. (Mass Effect was less risky on that front because the team was using another company's combat engine.)

Same for the setting. Dragon Age is a much safer game, not because it's not trying to do new and interesting things, but because it's trying to do new and interesting things in a land with elves and dwarves and nonhuman orclike things and swords and armor and magic. That's pretty easy for a white kid in Nebraska to appreciate, and that ease of entry for the average North American video-game player into the setting makes it lower risk in a way that Fake Ancient China is not.

Maybe that's one of the reasons this game (JE) didn't sell too well - seemingly - here in Germany ?
I mean - the setting ?

Originally Posted by Essaliad
I guess you're fond of stereotypes? Distinct from archetypes, of course: archetypal characters are recognizable, but can still be well-executed. Stereotypical stock characters which act identical to every other incarnation of themselves are… well, Bioware's forte. I admit, Joker was pretty good. Pity he's someone else's character. Gosh, I know imitation's flattery and everything, but I don't think Joss Whedon would be that flattered.



I'm curious what games you've been playing (or not playing, perhaps) that make you think Bioware's writing is any good.

How does that make your arguement? Wow, counter a question with a question. No, non of their characters will be in hamlet 3(joke) but they did the job for what was needed and they did it pretty well where it was not distracting. So…list these games of deep characters. I'm waiting.

Originally Posted by Prime Junta
Good game, but where were the creative risks?

In fairness it's the only game I can think of that tried to combine beat 'em up style fights with a role playing game style plot system. And cliched though it was it was still a different setting to the norm.

Sure they could have been more creative and done it a lot better but it did have quite a different feel to anything else I've played which is more creative than average.

One thing I don't get about this forum is how it is usually well behaved, but when an actual developer (such as Patrick Weekes, but there was at least some other developer that was quickly chased out, IIRC) posts here people pile on him with glee to slam him, his games and/or the company he works for.

RPG Codex is usually the other way around, they slam/troll things when developers aren't around, but when a developer posts people generally take the opportunity to ask questions and learn things about the game (until the trolling starts anew, but trolls are usually ignored/run side by side with serious questions for a few pages at least).

I for one haven't really kept up with the DA news, but chalk up another person amused at the article, and finding it and PW's posts a positive sign. I'll admit to taking any and all developer comments on games in production with a pinch of salt, but I'd still like to direct my thanks to Mr. Weekes and other developers for posting here. It is much appreciated.

Originally Posted by KazikluBey
I'd still like to direct my thanks to Mr. Weekes and other developers for posting here. It is much appreciated.

Seconded, shame we don't get more of that perspective on here, there's plenty of developers diary type things linked to but nothing compares to genuine interaction on forums.

Well, except maybe that "real life interaction" thing I gather one can do, but that's too scary. Too scary indeed.

Originally Posted by KazikluBey
One thing I don't get about this forum is how it is usually well behaved, but when an actual developer (such as Patrick Weekes, but there was at least some other developer that was quickly chased out, IIRC) posts here people pile on him with glee to slam him, his games and/or the company he works for.

This board isn't terribly busy, so a few posters might already be enough to cause this impression. Sometimes, it's also just an impression caused by omission. Like when I talk what I don't like about Bioware's handling of good/evil dialog in a different thread, I don't necessarily add that I'm talking about some of my favorite games ever, which might look as if I wanted to slam these games, but is not the case.

With Dragon Age, I have a "wait and see" attitude. I know that Bioware usually delivers solid games. I'm not doubting what Patrick said. On the other hand, there are so many aspects that decide whether I really love a game, merely like it, or don't like it all, that I don't get hung up on details like that upfront. I will let the game speak for itself.

I mean, we all know where these shrill reactions come from. It's bad experience with other successful companies' products for PC when they do console versions (I won't name names ). So the bad reaction is just the fear to see this happen again. I just hope I will like the game .

I think Bioware gets a lot of unfair stick as well, probably because in so many ways they do a great job that it gets frustrating to see their massive budget games rendered only solid rather than spectacular for the lack of stronger writing. Take Mass Effect - lots of work gone into the backstory and world building even, had more of that gone into good side quests rather than just background lore it'd have been a significantly better game.

I think really bioware gets all this because they are the only big RPG company left. People hold them to an imp[ossible standard.

Originally Posted by rune_74
I think really bioware gets all this because they are the only big RPG company left. People hold them to an imp[ossible standard.

And ironically they're probably going to end up doing more for the hardcore rpg market than anyone else, they'll just do it indirectly. Bioware's games are like an entry drug that'll swell the pool of serious users and make production of more serious rpgs commercially viable.