10 Best PC Games Ever @ MSN

Originally Posted by blatantninja
Of course, that means UO should have displaced WoW as UO was revolutionary, but Wow was evolutionary.

Aye. WoW doesn't make any sense in that particular list. If they wanted to put up the best games at the end of their respective evolutions, they'd have to replace most of the games mentioned with sequels or different games. Diablo instead of Rogue for instance.

So, this list is just like kind of an advertisement for wow ?

Why not Guild Wars, compared to WoW it had much better storytelling. I remember some friends of mine saying despite the simplistic quest system, WoW was actually good. Me and some other friends ignored them and continued playing Guild Wars for a little bit more, but it got boring and we decided to try WoW. Now, 4000 hours later, I got to say it's the best game experience to date. If you had the opportunity to play the early days in a social guild, progressing the ranks of dungeons and raids, I'd say it's deservedly one of the greatest game ever.

Originally Posted by hishadow
Now, 4000 hours later, I got to say it's the best game experience to date. If you had the opportunity to play the early days in a social guild, progressing the ranks of dungeons and raids, I'd say it's deservedly one of the greatest game ever.

True, memories of finally beating Ragnaros with a 40-man group are among the best gaming experiences I have ever had. But I think the same can be said of many MMO's that people played seriously for the first time.

Originally Posted by Thaurin
True, memories of finally beating Ragnaros with a 40-man group are among the best gaming experiences I have ever had. But I think the same can be said of many MMO's that people played seriously for the first time.

Indeed. My memories of my first dragon raids in EQ1 are probably very similar, how 20+ people had to coordinate to kill a huge freaking dragon (and her ice giant consorts), and we failed as often as not, this was year 2000 or so, there were no sites all over the internet that told you exactly what to do. All we had was some notes a few other dudes posted on the official forums on their experiences, and our own experiences from our previous failures.

I'd say we should be careful not to confuse the experience we get from the gameplay with the experience made possible because of the people we play with.

To facilitate human interaction is a good thing, but I don't think what good comes from the interaction should be attributed to the faciliation itself.

Everyone I knew who played Warcraft said they loved it. I agreed. The second game was even better, and we all enjoyed it even more. Then Blizzard made Starcraft, and that took the whole idea to an even greater level.

How then is it so hard to imagine an online version being genuinely fun? I've never played WoW, but its success is no surprise to me at all. The magnitude of it is startling, but it's also dominating the entire market, and that's how that goes.

WoW is an obvious target for criticism due to its clear success. Some of those points are bound to be valid, but among those will be the criticisms offered by all the losers who for some reason always speak up to take shots at obvious winners.

Originally Posted by Squeek
WoW is an obvious target for criticism due to its clear success. Some of those points are bound to be valid, but among those will be the criticisms offered by all the losers who for some reason always speak up to take shots at obvious winners.

So what are you saying, exactly?

Are we losers for not agreeing that it's the best game ever?

Originally Posted by DArtagnan
So what are you saying, exactly?

Are we losers for not agreeing that it's the best game ever?

If I were challenged to express what I said in terms of all-or-nothing, then I'd probably phrase it sort of like that. But I wasn't and didn't. My honest opinion is the one I expressed along with the ones I also expressed earlier in this thread.

I don't think those are so hard to imagine or understand either, frankly.

Originally Posted by wolfing
Indeed. My memories of my first dragon raids in EQ1 are probably very similar, how 20+ people had to coordinate to kill a huge freaking dragon (and her ice giant consorts), and we failed as often as not, this was year 2000 or so, there were no sites all over the internet that told you exactly what to do. All we had was some notes a few other dudes posted on the official forums on their experiences, and our own experiences from our previous failures.

Hehe, I missed out on Everquest because I absolutely hated the idea of MMOs at that time, but I gather that Blizzard took the raid as a key component when developing WoW. I also have to note that I don't believe in "Top 10" as absolute truth as there's been a lot of great games made over the years. If I said Hidden & Dangerous being the best LAN game ever, I'm sure equally many would object. Just to make myself clear: there's infinite room left at "one of the greatest games ever" category.

@DArtagnan: If a game facilitate human interaction, then that's a feature of the game, so in that reguard I'd have to disagree with you. Even though our guild was comprised by several friend-of-a-friend groups across my country, it's clearly not required to get a great experience from the game when you account for all the mixed international guilds. Just to make my point, our guild disbanded once we stopped raiding so raids and dungeons was a big attraction. Epics trump everything.

Originally Posted by Squeek
If I were challenged to express what I said in terms of all-or-nothing, then I'd probably phrase it sort of like that. But I wasn't and didn't. My honest opinion is the one I expressed along with the ones I also expressed earlier in this thread.

I don't think those are so hard to imagine or understand either, frankly.

So, you're not really saying anything - but inside you think of those challenging WoW being the best game ever as losers.

Check.

Originally Posted by hishadow
@DArtagnan: If a game facilitate human interaction, then that's a feature of the game, so in that reguard I'd have to disagree with you. Even though our guild was comprised by several friend-of-a-friend groups across my country, it's clearly not required to get a great experience from the game when you account for all the mixed international guilds. Just to make my point, our guild disbanded once we stopped raiding so raids and dungeons was a big attraction. Epics trump everything.

Then you must remember that this interaction is not a feature unique to WoW - and has existed in games for decades.

I personally think of WoW as a VERY good game, perhaps even one of the best of its kind - but I don't think it deserves more credit than any other MMO for facilitating human interaction, and that's what I'm saying.

Basically, I think we should look at games primarily for what's inherent to their designs and their content - and be careful not to confuse what's part of that with what we bring ourselves.

I'd consider that fair - but that's just my opinion.

Originally Posted by DArtagnan
So, you're not really saying anything - but inside you think of those challenging WoW being the best game ever as losers.

Check.

OK, DArtagnan.

Originally Posted by Squeek
OK, DArtagnan.

I sometimes envy those with the ability to speak their minds without actually speaking their minds. Not something I'm capable of myself - but I'm sure it would have saved me a LOT of trouble over the years.

Originally Posted by DArtagnan


I sometimes envy those with the ability to speak their minds without actually speaking their minds. Not something I'm capable of myself - but I'm sure it would have saved me a LOT of trouble over the years.

How about giving it a break DArtagnan? You're welcome to your point of view, and I'm welcome to mine. Get over it.

Originally Posted by Squeek
How about giving it a break DArtagnan? You're welcome to your point of view, and I'm welcome to mine. Get over it.

I don't recall getting in the way of your point of view?

I'm not sure what I should get over, in any case. I don't think I was ever in a position where I needed to get over anything you said.

So no letting it go, eh? You really don't get it, do you? OK, I'll try explaining it, though I think I'm likely to regret it. I may seem condescending, but to me you seem confused (sorry).

It's your rules. You're welcome to them, but they're not the rules. I imagine they're convenient for you, but they're not much fun for me. All of us naturally have rules we prefer, and that's fine. But you're insistent about yours.

I enjoy conversation, and that's why I expressed my point of view here. I would gladly elaborate and get a kick out of discussing it. But that doesn't mean I feel obligated, either.

Ever see someone with bad breath at a party? Everyone recoils from them. It's not that they don't want to enjoy that person's company. They just aren't enjoying the bad breath.

If you had asked me straight up if I was referring to you when I referred to "losers," I probably would have told you. But you're working it in a way I don't enjoy (and don't respect -- again, sorry), so I took a pass.

Originally Posted by Squeek
So no letting it go, eh? You really don't get it, do you? OK, I'll try explaining it, though I think I'm likely to regret it. I may seem condescending, but to me you seem confused (sorry).

It's your rules. You're welcome to them, but they're not the rules. I imagine they're convenient for you, but they're not much fun for me. All of us naturally have rules we prefer, and that's fine. But you're insistent about yours.

I enjoy conversation, and that's why I expressed my point of view here. I would gladly elaborate and get a kick out of discussing it. But that doesn't mean I feel obligated, either.

Ever see someone with bad breath at a party? Everyone recoils from them. It's not that they don't want to enjoy that person's company. They just aren't enjoying the bad breath.

If you had asked me straight up if I was referring to you when I referred to "losers," I probably would have told you. But you're working it in a way I don't enjoy (and don't respect -- again, sorry), so I took a pass.

I don't entirely understand what you're talking about.

I get it - you enjoy insulting the people you don't like, but you prefer to do it subtly and with the ability to "get out of it" should the desire arise.

I haven't requested anything in-depth about your opinions, so there's really no need to keep up your facade. I just tested the loser bit to get confirmation, not because it's important to me. Think of it as a matter of principle. I just have a tendency to test people, to make sure I don't judge them unfairly.

I found your comments amusing - because that kind of ignorant prejudice strikes me that way. Beyond that, I have very little respect for the inability to speak plainly - and veiled insults articulated in such a way that they can easily be explained away is just another sign of a nature I find hard to admire - but still manages to amuse me.

Your new - and most amusing - analogue of bad breath is a pretty certain indication that I was right from the beginning. Not that I needed more confirmation, but it's always good to be absolutely sure.

OK then. I'm glad we got that straight and out of the way.

Oh - and as another matter of principle - you should know I have you on ignore from now on, so we don't waste our time needlessly in the future