Top 10 CRPGs of all time

I can't say going through Irenicus' dungeon again would fill me with much joy. It's been a very long time since I played BG and I've never really liked Bioware's intro experiences. I just don't like tutorials in games.

It's useless to answer me about of all that crap I won't read. Ok I don't change what I think about that. But I also know I push it too far or too rough and once that's done I can only expect that some people will react too hot. So well you too you should better let that crap behind, that will be better for everybody.

Originally Posted by Dasale
It's more BG2 SoA which is overrated.

I disagree with you there

Originally Posted by Relayer
It's still a great game but Baldur's Gate II was so much better as to make it unnecessary to even bother with BG1 if you've never played the series.

Relayer pretty much said what I want to say in this

Originally Posted by woges
I can't say going through Irenicus' dungeon again would fill me with much joy. It's been a very long time since I played BG and I've never really liked Bioware's intro experiences. I just don't like tutorials in games.

That's what dungeon-begone mod for

Originally Posted by purpleblob

Originally Posted by Relayer
It's still a great game but Baldur's Gate II was so much better as to make it unnecessary to even bother with BG1 if you've never played the series.

Relayer pretty much said what I want to say in this

That's a bit short as an argument, in fact that's not an argument at all, just an assumption. It's not because there's a lot of subjectivity in personal preferences that you can't analyze them and explain them a bit. Allow me to give you an example.

Myself the reason I preferred BG1 than BG2 SoA are:

• Fights, that's an important part of the game as there are many fights. I preferred those in BG1 because of a terrible flaw in BG2 SoA fights, the first round(s) had too much importance for too many fights involving some tedious frenzy pausing. BG1 fights don't suffer this problem and the only problem was a balance in favor of long range weapons. But it's still much better fighting in BG1 than in BG2 SoA. Ha well I suppose some people enjoyed a lot this frenzy pausing.
• Companions are an important part of the mood and there's no comparison for me: In BG2 there's more quantity for a lower quality when compared to BG1. Companions was more detailed in BG2 but none was as attaching than most of those in BG1. Even companions coming from BG1 lost their nice appeal in BG2.
• BG2 had some stupid romances badly written, it's kiddish stuff BG1 wisely avoids. Not to mention how pathetic so unpleasant was that demagogic attempt. And not to mention that now we have to suffer this in many CRPG.
• The main story of BG2 is a ridiculously complicate machination, but the problem is that there are many points where you don't know yet how complicate is the whole stuff and then these points of the story are impossible to believe. For me that's quite bad writing.
• Still about writing quality, in BG2 you fell like being a puppet and not at all in BG1. It's in fact a general mood, BG2 is cold when BG1 is warm, that's true for companions and for this puppet non human approach but also for many other points of the game, I bet they fired the wrong writer. For sure every taste apply, myself I didn't like some BG2 writing choices.
• The beginning of both game is tedious, the advantage in BG1 is that Candlekeep is achieved quite fast and then the open world is here when in BG2 SoA it's a long and tedious beginning until at least you get to open world. That's quite a problem when you want try different classes and races.
• In BG1 there are many little thing you'll find by exploring the world. They build a little web of surprises and strange things. That builds a fantasy mood in BG1 that BG2 doesn't have that at all, For sure BG2 has more contents but not as many wild area with strange stuff and not at all the same fantasy mood than in BG1.

For sure I also find better points for BG2 like a bigger quantity, but well I don't care because I'm only looking for the quality so… Anyway overall the better points of BG1 are for me more important than the better points of BG2 SoA. But I have to add that for me the balance is quite close between the two.

Yes any opinion apply, that's just cool if you have the arguments that explain them and arguments that's are credible for their objective part.

I wouldn't argue that either game is better than the other when talking about BG 1&2. I think they're both great, and that it's simply a matter of personal preference.

The only statement that is blatantly false is the one claiming that nothing is missed by not playing BG1 at all.

Originally Posted by JDR13
The only statement that is blatantly false is the one claiming that nothing is missed by not playing BG1 at all.

I agree with that - both games are great RPGs and worth playing.

Of course, the graphics are only about the same as recent Spiderweb games, so perhaps they *should* be thrown in the trash …

Originally Posted by Relayer
But it hasn't held up well over time.

While I can understand a lot of things people don't like about BG, I have to completely disagree with this. What hasn't held up over time? The story is still amazing. The interface isn't as refined as BGII for sure, but it still is near the top of the technology tree for any 3-D isometric game.

It's still a great game but Baldur's Gate II was so much better as to make it unnecessary to even bother with BG1 if you've never played the series.

Once you got into it, I could see how not playing BG1 would be ok, but the game doesn't do a great job of bringing you up to speed at the forefront (the question and answer with Jaheria is ok, but doesn't really give you the feel of it), plus some of the other things that happen later wouldn't have as much meaning , like meeting up with Sarevok in ToB (I remembered how difficult a time I had defeating him in BG1 and was very hesitant to agree to his bargain to leave the location you find yourself in, I searched for a good hour for another way out) or when you return to Candlekeep in the dream sequences (It was very eerie to me to get sent back there and made me really remember BG1).

Icewind Dale was more enjoyable to me than BG.

I'm a big dungeon fan, so IWD was a lot more fun on the action side for me, but I felt the story side was very lacking.

Originally Posted by Essaliad
Agreed. I played BG after PS:T, so that may have colored my views somewhat unjustly, but BG was to me stale and boring, with too many empty areas. I've replayed IE games at least a few times, but BG was an exception: when I tried to start another game, I couldn't even motivate myself out of Candlekeep. IWD has much better atmosphere, areas, and combat.

I loved the open areas. It reminded me of Ultima where you could go most anywhere from the outset. I like to just go out and explore and see what I find as I build my character to a level high enough to start really taking the big quests on. That was one thing I really didn't like about BG2, that so much of the area exploration depended upon going out and talking to someone to unlock the area on the map.

I played BG less than one year ago and hate empty area, I wonder where you saw any.

There are a couple of map areas that have nothing quest related in them. They generally have some random encounters and maybe some hidden loot, but nothing quest related. I like that though. Makes me appreciate the time they took to fill out the world and feel less like I'm being railroaded along a plot line.

To use simple words: the game is dull. Flat. Tedious. Candlekeep in particular is a crappy starter area that offers very little in terms of interest, intrigue, excitement, glimpses of good writing or a good story, anything resembling good characterization.

That's funny, I'd say the exact opposite! I thought Candlekeep was a great starting place. I thought the tutorials offered were pretty good to show you how to add companions, use spells, items, weapons, etc. and I thought it gave some excitement that got me going in the game (why was Gorian so insistent that we leave soon? Who's this Imoen character and why can't she come with me? What the heck is this Candlekeep place?)

I do admit that parts of the main quest got a bit tedious, but overall, it really grabbed me.

Originally Posted by woges
I can't say going through Irenicus' dungeon again would fill me with much joy. It's been a very long time since I played BG and I've never really liked Bioware's intro experiences. I just don't like tutorials in games.

After my last go through of BGII, I know why the 'Skip Irenicus's dungeon mod' was made! It was cool to do the first time or two, but very tedious now.

Companions are an important part of the mood and there's no comparison for me: In BG2 there's more quantity for a lower quality when compared to BG1. Companions was more detailed in BG2 but none was as attaching than most of those in BG1. Even companions coming from BG1 lost their nice appeal in BG2.

I don't see how you get to this. Don't get me wrong, I got attached to my NPC's in BG1 (and II for that matter), but there is virtually no banter with the NPC's in BG1. Outside of the occasional whining by Jaheria and Kahlid to head to Nashkel, I don't remember many of them saying just about anything outside of random comments.

Last play through, I installed the party banter mod and I thought it really brought them all more to life (though it made Imoen far more annoying than I wanted!)

Not to mention how pathetic so unpleasant was that demagogic attempt.

I'm not that familiar with the terminology. What are you referring to?

Still about writing quality, in BG2 you fell like being a puppet and not at all in BG1. It's in fact a general mood, BG2 is cold when BG1 is warm

I liked the whole you impacting the world thing in BG1, but having the rest of the world not give a damn in BG2 was kind of refreshing as well. As for the cold/warm thing, not the words I'd use, but I think we're on the same page. BG1 to me was bright and inviting in everything from the town designs to the colors they used. BG2 was dark and foreboding. Don't get me wrong, I loved BG2 as well, but it's sort of the difference in how you feel when you watch a sad drama vs and uplifting movie. You might love them both, but most people prefer to be happy over sad!

LOL, I love how you take care to quote me without to mention my pseudo… Very elegant! And ok understand I won't read your crap!

I don't know what you mean, but Ok.

Originally Posted by blatantninja
I don't know what you mean, but Ok.

That's just elementary education, I'm very sorry for you that I have to snap your fingers to remind you that. When you quote someone you quote his name, that' so basic and obvious..

Look guys,

Some people think BG1 was better, and some think BG2 was better, it's not something to start flaming over. Both games left their mark on the genre, lets just leave it at that. I think we should let this thread get back on topic.

I agree with you. We don't have to start flame over it I think I disliked BG1 due to lack of NPC interactions and horrible resolution. Mainly interactions tho. I've installed Tutu to fix the resolution problem and still didn't find myself much motivated to play the game. On the other hand, once I installed few NPC mods like Gavin or Xan (by PPG) I found myself a bit more motivated. Sadly, not enough to finish the game again. I'm not talking about just romance. The lack of conversation makes me feel they are just "tagging along". I felt upset whenever NPCs in BG2 die and reloaded game but in BG1, I find myself shruggin and moving on. There are more meat shields later on.

Finding about myself (main char) was interesting in BG1. But it's kinda hard when you are just surviving every battle without solid NPCs there to support you (yeah I suck in battle).

On the subject about "you don't need to play BG1 to play BG2" - obviously it's better if you've played through BG1 before playing BG2. But I don't think it's crucial and hence I wasn't very motivated. All you need to know before starting BG2 is read wikipedia to learn backgroun abt who is Imoen, Khalid etc and that you were hunted by Sarevok. Oh, and that you are bhaalspawn. You don't have to play game to learn those.

As I said before, this is my opinion

EDIT: Oh, I forgot about journal system! As far as I am concered, I hated BG1 journal system which contributed to my disliking toward BG1.

Originally Posted by Dasale
That's just elementary education, I'm very sorry for you that I have to snap your fingers to remind you that. When you quote someone you quote his name, that' so basic and obvious..

If you do the cut and paste (which is what I usually do), you have to manually type the name in. I usually don't bother and I've never seen anyone get offended by that.

Originally Posted by Dasale
LOL, I love how you take care to quote me without to mention my pseudo… Very elegant! And ok understand I won't read your crap!

I see that your way of dealing with things you can't refute is to simply ignore it and declare "I won't read your crap!" Man, those splinters you shove into your eyes must be painful.

I think the moods of each BG game fit perfectly. The first game was bright and cheerful which reflected the characters innocence. After the ordeal of everything you went through in Baldurs Gate 1 its only natural and true to life that the characters and themes would be much darker in a sequel which is all about torture, responsability and sacrifice.

In no particular order:
* Might and Magic VI and VII - very enjoyable memories from these. I recently also completed V and graphics never bothered me.
* Fallout 1 and 2 - First one is my all-time favourite game.
* Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic - A joy to play and never got boring.
* Final Fantasy VII - Extremely tedious, almost like playing WoW , but I had to complete it.
* Baldur's Gate 1 and 2 - The first rated higher for it's story.
* The Elder Scrolls: Arena and Daggerfall - I remember one of these games had a bug halfway through the game that made it impossible to complete (in addition the King made a ghoul sound ), so I was delayed it half a year. I don't like the current Bethesda though.