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That's how the film ends?
June 7th, 2009, 21:30
Originally Posted by DeepOUgh, I hated Saló. I honestly couldn't see anything there beyond a really desperate effort to shock. It was a huge disappointment, because I really liked Teorema, Il Decameron, and A Thousand And One Nights. (In The Realm Of The Senses by Nagisa Oshima was very similar at some levels, and I liked that too.)
I´m not sure why but I somewhat neglected these three. I´ve seen Saló which was a bit too much for me.
However Resnais´ Night and Fog left me completely stunned and Andalusian Dog is amazing.
What would be your recommendations from these three?
RPGCodex' Little BRO
June 8th, 2009, 04:50
Pasolini is an interesting character. I've never watched Salo but from what I read about it, it appears that it's often misread out of context or with no context at all. I think it's important to have some understanding of what de Sade was trying to accomplish with his writings and importantly a recognition of the development of fascism in Italy up to during WW2 which Pasolini has indicted was a major theme the the film was speaking of. Also of importance is to reconcile Pasolini's character, particularly his relationship with politics. His political views started out left (Marxist, Gramscian) and he became more empathetic of farther left views of the autonomia such as those of Lotta Continua and also some of the Italian anarchists of the late sixities, early seventies and then later an interest in policies of the 'Third World' as you can see in some of his documentaries. Although his relationships with these popular movements was a complex one and he was also very critical and even responded with despondency. Some would frame Salo here.
I think also the contradictions surrounding his death can give more perspective to his life and Salo. In 05' the person who had been charged with his murder, recanted and said he had been forced to confess under pressure of violence against his family. Those who killed Pasolini, who was run over multiple time by a vehicle, claimed he was a 'dirty communist'. It's important to remember that Pasolini was a well known public intellectual in Italy. He wrote poetry, highly regarded novels, painted, was a journalist. There are others who claim that Pasolini planned his death and it was intended to give a more full meaning to his all work. That you could even find clues to his death in his films and novels (and there have been several 'coincidences' revealed in the mean time, such as his filming of the spot he would later pass on during the making of A Thousand and One Nights) And it was also reported that film prints of Salo had been stolen at the time (his death took place two weeks before the film was released to the public) and he was meeting the thieves when murdered. It's quite an ordeal really.
Not only this, but I've read that after Pasolini released his Trilogy of Life, or the three literary adaptations that came before Salo, (two of which PJ refer to and the other adapting The Canterbury Tales) he alluded to them being politically significant because they understood the body as being last sites untouched by consumer capitalism. Apparently the subsequent response of Italian society affected that opinion and thus you have Salo. That is, bodies conquered.
But you know, I haven't seen Salo. I'm not going to pretend to understand or know it ahead of viewing it. But it does generate a lot of discussion, which is great and often it seems to receive the bottom denominator treatment of 'most shocking' and not because it was political shocking satire but because of scenes of explicit coprophagia. Again, I'm not an apologist but it's difficult for me to believe the film was made in a vacuum - no one here is asserting this, I know.
Anyways, my personal feelings are to start Pasolini with his first experience directing, Accattone, which is sort of second wave neorealism exploring the italian underworld. Next would be Mamma Roma, another foray into neorealism about a middle aged prostitute struggling to escape her sordid past for the sake of her son. You can see from these two films Pasolini's fascination with the marginalized and dispossessed and a theme that he continues to return to in novels and films for the duration of his life. There's also a fantastic short he released about this time, that I think is now an extra on Criterion's transfer of Mamma Roma, called La Ricotta as in the cheese. It was released as part of a film anthology (Ro.Go.Pa.G.) at the time along with shorts of Rossellini, Godard and Gregoretti - hence the name. It's a fantastic bit on celluloid about a poor film hand working on the set of a movie about the Passion of Christ (director played by Orson Welles, by the way). Very clever and refined - one to look out for!
I'm going to resist the urge to launch into a descriptive essay tracing Pasolini's chronology mostly because there are several out there with much more depth and context than I can provide! I highly recommend checking the film journals, Senses of Cinema, Cineaste, and Film Quarterly. Senses of Cinema in particular has really sharp and exploratory summation.
Suffice to say, there isn't a Pasolini, that I've seen at least (and comparatively there are a number of them to be sure), that I would recommend against. His films all trace the development of his intellectual, political and spiritual sensibilities usually with a sharp eye for composition and interesting themes. Some of my favorites would be those mentioned already as well as Medea, Porcile, and his Trilogy of Life. For me, it's his sense of the sacred and mythic that intrigue me the most although I understand his recognition of these themes and his relationship with them the least.
I think also the contradictions surrounding his death can give more perspective to his life and Salo. In 05' the person who had been charged with his murder, recanted and said he had been forced to confess under pressure of violence against his family. Those who killed Pasolini, who was run over multiple time by a vehicle, claimed he was a 'dirty communist'. It's important to remember that Pasolini was a well known public intellectual in Italy. He wrote poetry, highly regarded novels, painted, was a journalist. There are others who claim that Pasolini planned his death and it was intended to give a more full meaning to his all work. That you could even find clues to his death in his films and novels (and there have been several 'coincidences' revealed in the mean time, such as his filming of the spot he would later pass on during the making of A Thousand and One Nights) And it was also reported that film prints of Salo had been stolen at the time (his death took place two weeks before the film was released to the public) and he was meeting the thieves when murdered. It's quite an ordeal really.
Not only this, but I've read that after Pasolini released his Trilogy of Life, or the three literary adaptations that came before Salo, (two of which PJ refer to and the other adapting The Canterbury Tales) he alluded to them being politically significant because they understood the body as being last sites untouched by consumer capitalism. Apparently the subsequent response of Italian society affected that opinion and thus you have Salo. That is, bodies conquered.
But you know, I haven't seen Salo. I'm not going to pretend to understand or know it ahead of viewing it. But it does generate a lot of discussion, which is great and often it seems to receive the bottom denominator treatment of 'most shocking' and not because it was political shocking satire but because of scenes of explicit coprophagia. Again, I'm not an apologist but it's difficult for me to believe the film was made in a vacuum - no one here is asserting this, I know.
Anyways, my personal feelings are to start Pasolini with his first experience directing, Accattone, which is sort of second wave neorealism exploring the italian underworld. Next would be Mamma Roma, another foray into neorealism about a middle aged prostitute struggling to escape her sordid past for the sake of her son. You can see from these two films Pasolini's fascination with the marginalized and dispossessed and a theme that he continues to return to in novels and films for the duration of his life. There's also a fantastic short he released about this time, that I think is now an extra on Criterion's transfer of Mamma Roma, called La Ricotta as in the cheese. It was released as part of a film anthology (Ro.Go.Pa.G.) at the time along with shorts of Rossellini, Godard and Gregoretti - hence the name. It's a fantastic bit on celluloid about a poor film hand working on the set of a movie about the Passion of Christ (director played by Orson Welles, by the way). Very clever and refined - one to look out for!
I'm going to resist the urge to launch into a descriptive essay tracing Pasolini's chronology mostly because there are several out there with much more depth and context than I can provide! I highly recommend checking the film journals, Senses of Cinema, Cineaste, and Film Quarterly. Senses of Cinema in particular has really sharp and exploratory summation.
Suffice to say, there isn't a Pasolini, that I've seen at least (and comparatively there are a number of them to be sure), that I would recommend against. His films all trace the development of his intellectual, political and spiritual sensibilities usually with a sharp eye for composition and interesting themes. Some of my favorites would be those mentioned already as well as Medea, Porcile, and his Trilogy of Life. For me, it's his sense of the sacred and mythic that intrigue me the most although I understand his recognition of these themes and his relationship with them the least.
Watcher
June 9th, 2009, 10:17
Thanks for the insightful post, spars!
It definitely sparked my interest in Pasolini´s older work.
After being rather disappointed with Saló I sorta put him to ice, planning to check some of his other work sometimes in future, but never did.
I think I´ll watch those first two films first and then check out the Trilogy of Life.
For the record, I wasn´t disappointed with Saló that much for its shocking value, I just found Pasolini´s methods kinda agressive and dare I say pretentious, well, at least to my liking by that time. I actually rather liked the coprodinner, and its statement towards consumerism.
Seems like Pasolini just requires more research than usual so I´m not really surprised I didn´t fully get it since I usually more-or-less try to, eh, let the art speak for itself.
On my list, there´s probably a fair share of films where more "research" can help one appreciate the film more, but in my experience it not always leads to liking it more. Ah, it´s more complex than that so I better stop.
What do I know, Pasolini as well may be a similar case I had with Tarkovsky.
First film of his I´ve seen was Solyaris and I simply couldn´t help but thinking how pretentious and often simply dull it is.
Well, year later I was totally blown away by Rublyev and Stalker
.
I still don´t like Solyaris though.
.
I´ll check Teorema and 1000 nights too, thanks!
It definitely sparked my interest in Pasolini´s older work.
After being rather disappointed with Saló I sorta put him to ice, planning to check some of his other work sometimes in future, but never did.
I think I´ll watch those first two films first and then check out the Trilogy of Life.
For the record, I wasn´t disappointed with Saló that much for its shocking value, I just found Pasolini´s methods kinda agressive and dare I say pretentious, well, at least to my liking by that time. I actually rather liked the coprodinner, and its statement towards consumerism.
Seems like Pasolini just requires more research than usual so I´m not really surprised I didn´t fully get it since I usually more-or-less try to, eh, let the art speak for itself.
On my list, there´s probably a fair share of films where more "research" can help one appreciate the film more, but in my experience it not always leads to liking it more. Ah, it´s more complex than that so I better stop.
What do I know, Pasolini as well may be a similar case I had with Tarkovsky.
First film of his I´ve seen was Solyaris and I simply couldn´t help but thinking how pretentious and often simply dull it is.
Well, year later I was totally blown away by Rublyev and Stalker
.I still don´t like Solyaris though.
Originally Posted by Prime JuntaAfter reading spars´ post and some other analyses of the film, it´s quite clear there´s much more to the film other than the shock value, but I´m still not really sure if the way Saló was made was an ideal way to get those points across
Ugh, I hated Saló. I honestly couldn't see anything there beyond a really desperate effort to shock. It was a huge disappointment, because I really liked Teorema, Il Decameron, and A Thousand And One Nights. (In The Realm Of The Senses by Nagisa Oshima was very similar at some levels, and I liked that too.)
.I´ll check Teorema and 1000 nights too, thanks!
deep outside
June 9th, 2009, 10:20
Originally Posted by DeepOSame here. I really wanted to like Solaris, because the book is one of my all-time favorites; I've attempted to watch it on multiple occasions and once actually made it all the way through, but by God it's DULL!
What do I know, Pasolini as well may be a similar case I had with Tarkovsky.
First film of his I´ve seen was Solyaris and I simply couldn´t help but thinking how pretentious and often simply dull it is.
Well, year later I was totally blown away by Rublyev and Stalker
I still don´t like Solyaris though.
Stalker and Rublev, OTOH, were great. Especially Stalker.
RPGCodex' Little BRO
June 9th, 2009, 11:44
Originally Posted by Prime JuntaYeah, I really like the book too.
Same here. I really wanted to like Solaris, because the book is one of my all-time favorites; I've attempted to watch it on multiple occasions and once actually made it all the way through, but by God it's DULL!
Stalker and Rublev, OTOH, were great. Especially Stalker.
Creative liberties are nice and all, but Tarkovsky just went overboard on this one and somewhat sucked the life out of it in the process and replaced it with a lot of, well, wankery imo.
I wouldn´t say it´s a bad film, there´s a lot of great cinematography throughout and some scenes are rather fascinating, but as a whole it feels, um, unnecessary.
Too much vacuum
.
deep outside
June 11th, 2009, 19:47
PJ, if you like Oshima, I can't recommend his Death by Hanging enough. Intensely political and provocative. Stylistically, it's very unlike In the Realm of the Senses, but it's essential.
Edit: I liked Solaris a good bit, by the way. I feel that Tarkovsky's use of the long take is really conducive to helping us reconcile Kelvin's grief and sense of loss. Tarkovsky is very much interested in the esoteric and Christian metaphysics and in that way he doesn't give you much that's certain. It doesn't appear that he volunteers answers very easily. Tarkovsky and Lem argued over this a lot. Lem, in the end, didn't really like the film either. He wanted the book on screen but Tarkovsky moreso wanted to explore aspects of the human condition using the encounters with alien intelligence. It's been a few months since I've watched this and I'm curious how it'll be after repeated viewings.
I also watched Soderbergh's adaptation of Solaris and found it interesting. I'm not very fond of his casting and thought some the tropes he employed were too translucent. But Soderbergh is also much more willing to explain his understanding of the characters and events. It's almost overly didactic in contrast with Tarkovsky's take.
I think I prefer Andrei Rublev the most but I tend to feel capricious about these things.
Edit: I liked Solaris a good bit, by the way. I feel that Tarkovsky's use of the long take is really conducive to helping us reconcile Kelvin's grief and sense of loss. Tarkovsky is very much interested in the esoteric and Christian metaphysics and in that way he doesn't give you much that's certain. It doesn't appear that he volunteers answers very easily. Tarkovsky and Lem argued over this a lot. Lem, in the end, didn't really like the film either. He wanted the book on screen but Tarkovsky moreso wanted to explore aspects of the human condition using the encounters with alien intelligence. It's been a few months since I've watched this and I'm curious how it'll be after repeated viewings.
I also watched Soderbergh's adaptation of Solaris and found it interesting. I'm not very fond of his casting and thought some the tropes he employed were too translucent. But Soderbergh is also much more willing to explain his understanding of the characters and events. It's almost overly didactic in contrast with Tarkovsky's take.
I think I prefer Andrei Rublev the most but I tend to feel capricious about these things.
Last edited by spars; June 11th, 2009 at 20:03.
Watcher
June 11th, 2009, 21:14
Ah, Repo Man is a classic, Junta.
I don't think I could list my favorite 50 movies and like another poster, my tastes aren't all that high brow, yet I do need more than Weekend at Bernie's to feel intellectually satisfied.
I would have to list Downfall as one of my top favorites after having checked it out from the library recently. The movie was captivating, and Hitler's frequent tirades were just chilling. I forget the actor that portrayed him, but his performance was amazing. From all the books I have read and documentaries watched regarding that era of history, I thought that movie really brought it all to life.
I don't think I could list my favorite 50 movies and like another poster, my tastes aren't all that high brow, yet I do need more than Weekend at Bernie's to feel intellectually satisfied.
I would have to list Downfall as one of my top favorites after having checked it out from the library recently. The movie was captivating, and Hitler's frequent tirades were just chilling. I forget the actor that portrayed him, but his performance was amazing. From all the books I have read and documentaries watched regarding that era of history, I thought that movie really brought it all to life.
Sentinel
June 11th, 2009, 23:28
1. The Godfather triology (With the first one as my favourite)
2. Star Wars episode 3, 4, 5 & 6 (With the 4th as a little less compared to the others)
3. The Good, The Bad & The Ugly
4. Le Fabuleux Destin d'Amélie Poulain
5. Star Trek First Contact
6. Life of Brian
7. The Last Boyscout
8. The Shawshank Redemption
9. Shrek
10. Reservoir Dogs
2. Star Wars episode 3, 4, 5 & 6 (With the 4th as a little less compared to the others)
3. The Good, The Bad & The Ugly
4. Le Fabuleux Destin d'Amélie Poulain
5. Star Trek First Contact
6. Life of Brian
7. The Last Boyscout
8. The Shawshank Redemption
9. Shrek
10. Reservoir Dogs
--
so very, very tired (Star Trek XI quote according to the Simpsons)
so very, very tired (Star Trek XI quote according to the Simpsons)
BartWatch
June 12th, 2009, 01:28
Originally Posted by Bartacus
2. Star Wars episode 3, 4, 5 & 6 (With the 4th as a little less compared to the others)
One of those definitely does not belong.
SasqWatch
Original Sin Donor
June 12th, 2009, 04:53
Originally Posted by JDR13I actually like #3 quite a bit as well … we pulled the kids from school early that day to go see it.
One of those definitely does not belong.
Originally Posted by EvilManagedCareAnd, more importantly, Repo Man is always intense.
Ah, Repo Man is a classic, Junta.
--
-- Mike
-- Mike
SasqWatch
June 12th, 2009, 04:58
Originally Posted by txa1265It wasn't terrible by any means, but I just don't think *any* of the SW prequels should be mentioned when discussing a "best of" list.
I actually like #3 quite a bit as well … we pulled the kids from school early that day to go see it.
SasqWatch
Original Sin Donor
June 12th, 2009, 08:41
Originally Posted by EvilManagedCareBruno Ganz
I would have to list Downfall as one of my top favorites after having checked it out from the library recently. The movie was captivating, and Hitler's frequent tirades were just chilling. I forget the actor that portrayed him, but his performance was amazing. From all the books I have read and documentaries watched regarding that era of history, I thought that movie really brought it all to life.
Prime Evil
Moderator
RPGWatch Team
Original Sin 1 & 2 Donor
RPGWatch Team
Original Sin 1 & 2 Donor
June 12th, 2009, 11:09
Originally Posted by txa1265Why did this make me think of the lunch I had yesterday? Shrimp. On a plate.
And, more importantly, Repo Man is always intense.
RPGCodex' Little BRO
June 12th, 2009, 11:59
Originally Posted by JDR13For me it was better then the 4th episode. I do admit that I'm not old enough to have seen the original versions in theater, but I have seen them on tv and the 'improved' versions when they came out on big screen. The 3th episode come for me on the same level as episode 5 and 6. Still the 4th episode belongs to my top ten list.
It wasn't terrible by any means, but I just don't think *any* of the SW prequels should be mentioned when discussing a "best of" list.
A second thing is that although the Godfather and Star Wars saga is always on number 1 and 2, the other movies kinda fluctuate. I mean that the Usual Suspects and some others are sometimes on my top ten list while some others aren't.
--
so very, very tired (Star Trek XI quote according to the Simpsons)
so very, very tired (Star Trek XI quote according to the Simpsons)
BartWatch
June 12th, 2009, 12:34
Originally Posted by Bartacus
I mean that the Usual Suspects and some others are sometimes on my top ten list while some others aren't.
I don't see The Usual Suspects on your list right now.
Better pray Keyser Söze doesn't find out…
SasqWatch
Original Sin Donor
June 12th, 2009, 13:02
Originally Posted by BartacusTo me that is ultimately important. It really is impossible for someone who didn't see it in '77 to really grasp just how monumental the movie was in terms of impact.
For me it was better then the 4th episode. I do admit that I'm not old enough to have seen the original versions in theater,
That said, I have always laughed at looking at anything Star Wars as 'great', as the acting, plots, and so on have always seemed B-movie stuff to me …
--
-- Mike
-- Mike
SasqWatch
June 12th, 2009, 13:18
Well, they are great B-movies. IMO at least.
Lucas was inspired by the classic "cliffhangers" of the 1950's -- right down to the scrolling expository text in the beginning.
Some movies manage to capture the Zeitgeist, without being transcendently great works of art (like most of the ones on the rather highbrow lists touted here). Gone With The Wind, Rebel Without A Cause, My Fair Lady, the Pink Panther movies, the Star Wars OC plus the first Indiana Jones flick, Pulp Fiction, and some (more or less) "cult movies" like Repo Man or This Is Spinal Tap or even Rocky Horror Picture Show do it. They're the right movie at the right time.
Lucas was inspired by the classic "cliffhangers" of the 1950's -- right down to the scrolling expository text in the beginning.
Some movies manage to capture the Zeitgeist, without being transcendently great works of art (like most of the ones on the rather highbrow lists touted here). Gone With The Wind, Rebel Without A Cause, My Fair Lady, the Pink Panther movies, the Star Wars OC plus the first Indiana Jones flick, Pulp Fiction, and some (more or less) "cult movies" like Repo Man or This Is Spinal Tap or even Rocky Horror Picture Show do it. They're the right movie at the right time.
RPGCodex' Little BRO
June 12th, 2009, 13:34
Originally Posted by Prime JuntaWhich is what makes it so hard to deal with them cross-generations …
Some movies manage to capture the Zeitgeist, without being transcendently great works of art
--
-- Mike
-- Mike
SasqWatch
June 12th, 2009, 15:20
Originally Posted by JDR13I'm not afraid of Kevin Spacey
I don't see The Usual Suspects on your list right now.
Better pray Keyser Söze doesn't find out…
And the Usual suspects is not the only movie: Indiana Jones is one of my all time favorites too. La Vita č bella, the bucket list, sleepless in Seatle, 7 pounds, LotR, 21, … They 're so many movies I like a lot. I mean that even Trainspotting and the Matrix could sometimes be found in my top ten.
--
so very, very tired (Star Trek XI quote according to the Simpsons)
so very, very tired (Star Trek XI quote according to the Simpsons)
BartWatch
June 17th, 2009, 13:44
Originally Posted by DeepOThat was a great movie, I can't seem to convince people that it's actually good in spite of Jim Carrey being in it though.
My favourite 50 films.
46. Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind (Michel Gondry, 2004)
Did you ever watch I Heart Huckabees? If you like eternal sunshine I think you'd like that too.
Quite want to see Synechdoche, New York (by the eternal sunshine man), just as soon as I work out how to pronounce it.
SasqWatch
Original Sin 2 Donor
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