The future of D&D based games

In the tradition of D&Ds, some of the classic RPGs had been made such as BG II, IWD 1, NWN + HoTU, Planetscape Torment. And although recently NWN2 + its expansions have been considered as good game, its kinds are far and few among those non-D&D but hugely popupar , to name only a few DIABLOs, GOTHICs, MORROWINDs, OBLIVIONs, WITCHER …

The future appears bleak for D&D based games. And now GARY has sold out his creation ( for gold of course ).

I have to admit that at the beginning I was put off by these D&Ds' rules but I had gone through some painful effort to understand some of the rules and did enjoyed those classic rpgs above mentioned. I wonder if this is the reason for the waning of this type?

Don't get me wrong, I want these D&D based games to flourish. It just produce more variety to the games. Afterall, I have got used to its type.

I'd totally love a new Infinity engine game. BG, IWD, Planescape - I'd fly out the door to buy two copies. Am I the only only who loves cRPGs to be fixed isometric?

What's all this about selling out? Is DnD now owned by a software publisher?

What's all this about selling out? Is DnD now owned by a software publisher?

I am not sure who owns it now. Last time I heard GARY has sold his right for amount of gold.

IMO D&D 4th Edition killed it. Version 3.0 to 3.5 were the best; simple yet flexible enough to handle just about any fantasy RPG thrown at it, and worked great for cRPG's as well. Fourth edition turned it into, basically, tabletop WoW. There were some improvements, e.g. to class differentiation; the Warlord class for example -- which derives its strength from its command abilities -- was great. Overall, however, it replaced imagination with pyrotechnics; role-playing with loot-gathering.

For me, that pretty much closed the chapter of D&D. There will still be some nice-enough NWN2 modules and adventures produced, for sure (Purgatorio much?), but it's basically over. And yes, I believe it's leaving a big hole that's waiting to be filled.

What is it you can do in D&D 3.5 that you can't do in D&D 4.0?

Übereil

I think that's the wrong question.
As far as I learned about 4.0 .

Well the future for D&D is obviously computers and it seems to be a focus on hybrid tabletop play. D&DO was their first go around at this (clearly a miserable failure) just as NWN was their first attempt at 3.0.

As for GG he as forced out of TSR (twice) and held a grudge to his dying day, unlike Dave Arneson whom he did the same thing too 20 years before. GG was last heard complaining about 3.0 and the future of 4.0, especially worried about an impending removal of alignments.

For all the impact on society D&D had I don't think profits ever exceeded $10 million at TSR. For the most part I think WotC did well with it, especially 3.5, but at times the franchise seems to hemorrhage money.

Moving towards a faster, computer driven model in order to get royalties from game licenses and not relying on publishing is a smart idea. Computers a are a lot faster than they were 25 years ago and the twitch games that are selling. Can't say if it will pay off as they are a "me too" in a saturated computer field.

Its also alienated many traditional fans obviously but the traditional fans rarely by into new hardcover book systems when the old ones do just fine, tyvm. Like any marketing to young people, you've got to constantly appeal to next year's market.

Originally Posted by Ubereil
What is it you can do in D&D 3.5 that you can't do in D&D 4.0?

A low-magic campaign: almost all of the more powerful abilities of all the classes have magical fireworks attached. Fully abstracted combat -- i.e., no figurines and no map: many of the abilities of many are expressed in terms of shifting pieces (your own, your allies', or your enemies') some number of squares. Distributing skill points in any other way than maxing out the skills you've chosen. Binding game mechanics to law or chaos: now there's only good, evil, and chaotic evil (which means "really evil").

That's off the top of my head; if I broke out the books again and looked a bit, I could come up with a lot more. Basically, 4.0 turned D&D from a general-purpose, highly flexible, highly abstract game system into a narrowly scoped, rigid, strictly rule-based, tabletop-figurine-heavy, high-fantasy-only system.

To me what killed 4.0 was the total destruction of immersion. D&D before 4.0 could be considered a 'fantasy world simulation'. 4.0 turned it into 'fantasy game simulation'. To me, immersion was what I enjoyed the most about my PnP sessions, to actually feel like I was the character, and I was there, sitting around the fireplace with my fellow adventurers. 4.0 destroyed that and turned it into 'playing WoW with dice'.

3 things that I remember:
- Every class can heal. Yep, Grung the soldier squats and heals himself. No potions, healers or bandages needed.
- Almost dead with hundreds of injuries? no worries! rest for a few hours and you're good as new!
- Level 1 fighter just fresh out of your stepfather's house? No problem! grab a sword and kill 20 goblins by yourself!

That was too much for me. I closed the book and never looked back.

Thanks, wolfing -- you explained it better than I could.

Man, this has me really depressed now. I've missed D&D ever since I finished up college, and knowing I'll probably never play it again makes me a sad panda.

I tried to GM 3.5, but it didn't work well. It felt like it was built for computergames. I am usually the one who find rules simple.

Originally Posted by Prime Junta
Distributing skill points in any other way than maxing out the skills you've chosen.

Do you even distribute skills? I thought they got rid of that.

Originally Posted by Prime Junta
Binding game mechanics to law or chaos: now there's only good, evil, and chaotic evil (which means "really evil").

…and unalligned.

That "healing for a few hours" bit was one of my pet peevers with all the D&D games I've played btw. Back when I played Icewind Dale I pretty much HAD to sleep after a few battles. So you slept for about 20 hours a day.

Übereil

I a discussion at the RPC someone called 4.0 a "reverse engineering" of wow and how one could translate that into P&P.

Originally Posted by Ubereil
Do you even distribute skills? I thought they got rid of that.

Sorta, but not really. You tag them, and they automatically go up when you go up a level. In NWN (2) I usually do the functional equivalent -- I only pick as many skills as I can max out; in PnP games, though, I encourage my players to take different levels of different skills so they can have a broader range of experience.

One of the things I've liked best in PnP D&D is playing with groups that cohere -- perhaps the most fun campaign I've run had an all-bard party, with each of the bards specializing in a different type of performance: we had an actor, an acrobat, a knife-thrower, a singer, a musician, and a stage magician. (They were all members of the same theatrical troupe.) The 3.x rules easily allow that, simply by picking your abilities, skills, and feats accordingly, plus mmmaybe throwing in a level or two of some complementary class.

It was a lot of fun; the sense of social coherence was great, and because everybody still had similar "base" skills, we never got into a situation of being kinda stuck because the wizard/cleric/rogue couldn't attend the session just when s/he was most needed.

With 4.0, the only way to make a functional party is to have each player assume one of the pre-defined roles -- tank, striker, healer, leader, glass cannon, what have you.

I have to say, I actually love 4.0. The internet discussions are fun to read, but the arguments that arise on less intelligent boards are absolutely hilarious. Who needs to play? Just go online and see the latest in 3.x vs 4.0 flame wars for your entertainment.

I won't comment on the system for gaming; the last time I did that, 2E was new (and there was no internet like we have now). The one thing I do like is that 4 got rid of the old Vanican spell casting system. I'm not adverse to memorization rules, but that system did them oddly.