Dragon Age - Desslock Comments

Originally Posted by Squeek
Yet if we were to award a prize to the poster who had shown the most disdain for the opinions of others, I think you might win (See the opening sentence of your post for example).

Sure, this because I don't agree that fallout 3 is not a fallout game? My opening sentance was kind ofa blast to the point where I think comming to these sites is getting to the point of being a waste of time. It is the "in" thing to hate the mainstream devs, bethesda for instance. I never said I had to agree with others opinions on games, but they are definately entitled to them.

Have I battled certain posters who seem to be on a zealot craze at times? sure. Do I need to explain to any of you why I like certain games? not a bit. I do not feel I need excuses for liking oblivion(although so many of you are willing to tell me why I should hate it) or fallout 3? Hell I even liked gothic 3 and it was messed up way more then oblivion(which alot of you chose to ignore). I think I have always been about people liking what they like, not what some people say they should like. Does that mean I shouldn't call it like I see it? Should I ignore the fact that people have axes to grind and take what they say on face value?

I would think that I have a pretty good head on my shoulders when it comes to games, I just don't think all of us should be pidgeonholed into what defines an rpg. It is pretty simple when it comes down to it…if you don't like it don't play it…don't buy it….speak with your wallets. You don't even have to like me, or even read this post.

Sorry for the rant, but I think maybe it has got to the point I no longer enjoy forums.

Alright….


The way I see it is there is a huge difference between what people here call "Taste" and the actual objective "Quality" of a game. when we toss words around like "Good" we see that the above concepts can be taken interchangeably with this added word, hence disagreements.

to explain the wide difference between "Quality" and personal "Taste" I will use a poor analogy.

I love the film "Manos-the hand of fate" because its hilarious and EXTREME. is it a quality film? no. Does Manos suit someone's personal taste? yes.

If you are unfamiliar with Manos insert any retardedly low budget horror film or a sweded film from youtube.

Films have objective qualities. so do Games.

Obilivion: lots of people personal taste? yes. Quality? no. The point of contention is what is quality?

Qualities of an RPG:

1. Depth and Complexity. It has been an argued that any game is a Role-Playing game because you take the Role of a main character/vehicle/object. but we as rpg players expect more then that, we want details, character development, intricate statistical models, all serving towards the end of drawing us in deeper to the character/game, hence, depth.

If you disagree then stating that Super Mario is an RPG is okay right?

2. Excellent dialogue, Narrative storytelling, overall Writing! most today argue the "show, don't tell" doctrine of relating stories to gamers I've yet to see this impact someone on the level that text actually does routinely at least in gaming. this section can also be difficult to gauge since some games can do part of this right while the rest sucks hard. Example: Mass Effect some decent dialogue between characters but the overall narrative/story/ and writing is mediocrity.

For those who disagree with this aspect or who favor only the "Show, Don't tell" doctrine "Half Life" is your RPG, have fun.

3. Choices and Consequences. a rather nebulous concept since it is rarely achieved. To start some simple truths of CnC. A choice is not really a choice unless there is a direct and lasting consequence that is seen eventually by the player, a hidden consequence has no meaning unless you know about it. Fake choices are the bread and butter of rpgs nowadays some are blatantly obvious(oblivion,ME) others are well implemented(The Witcher) all are an insult to your intelligence as a player.

For those who disagree with this section play a JRPG and have fun.

4. Challenge. when a loss is meaningful you have gained the most from it. when you struggle and win you feel great, it is undeniable human nature. all games need this or they are not games.

This is the difference between Nethack and Fable. for those who disagree enjoy Fable.


These are some of the qualities of great roleplaying games. It is undeniable that if Oblivion or FO3 had possessed an abundance of these qualities in addition to whatever else it accomplishes it would be a great RPG. but it does not.

Addendum: while it does a disservice to the genre by claiming "oblivion is good" it is equally wrong to only say it is bad with out explaining yourself or pointing to quality games elsewhere. oblivion like other games is a stepping stone for those who are less experienced in the true qualities of the genre or a fun romp for those with bad "taste"(see Manos).

2nd addendum: Those who deny the existence of qualities in gaming are relativists and should be shot. while my bad taste in film may be "Manos" I don't recommend it for Oscars nor do I look at others who like "2001: a space odyssey" and say well…that just like…your opinion, man.

opening post rant is over.
Sincerely,
Polyhedron

The turning point for me that made me appreciate Morrowind was that first bookstore in Balmora. Tons and tons of lore. I spent a couple nights just reading all the books. It was the world - its alieness and depth imparted by the books.

Will DA do this for me? I can only hope, but somehow doubt it. World building is not one of Bioware's strengths.

In fact I'm not sure where Bioware's strengths lie anymore.

Originally Posted by Thrasher
The turning point for me that made me appreciate Morrowind was that first bookstore in Balmora. Tons and tons of lore. I spent a couple nights just reading all the books. It was the world - its alieness and depth imparted by the books.

You might want to check out the previous TES game then. Most of Morrowind's books were Daggerfall books, except several were edited for Morrowind (to make them more "PG").

Yeah, I've played Daggerfall, but it didn't give me the same other worldly feeling.

I guess it depends on what a particular person considers 'good RPG'. It seems to me those who blast Oblivion and praise Gothic it's because there aren't many hidden things to find if you explore the world. To me, I don't care about that, at all. To me it's about gameplay, meaningful stats/spells/skills, and allowing me to play the character I want from the start, which I can't do in Gothic but I can do in Oblivion (and Morrowind). A healthy character generation screen is a big plus (again, Gothic doesn't apply). I'm not saying Gothic is worse than Oblivion, I'm saying it's worse *to my taste*. So if the reviewer shares my likings, then DA seems to be a must buy (which I was going to buy anyway as I just decided to ignore all the stupid EA marketing)

Polyhedron,

I am a relativist and obviously could be shot.

But come on you can see the holes in your arguments a mile off.

Depth and Complexity. Actually the lore of Oblivion is quite deep…even if it was recycled from Morrowind & Daggerfall and some of it is rather inconsistent.

"Excellent" dialogue is obviously a matter of taste. Would you prefer technically correct language with no spelling mistakes which is mediocre, or unusual, interesting writing which is technically poor? Which is "better"?

Choices and consequences…this is argued over repeatedly. Bioware has some C&C but playing evil often boils down to "give me your money or else". Is that better or worse than no choice at all because it is so superficial?

Challenge - Oblivion was very challenging out of the box. Did you not fight the bandits in Daedric armour?

To me video games are essentially pieces of art; a combination of the written/spoken word and visual quality. As such I cannot see them as anything other than taste. Sure, you might be able to discern whether games appeal to more people's taste as an aribiter of what is good - but then you'd plump for something like Oblivion over, say, Arcanum. Mass appeal does not substitute for finding a view which expresses a similar taste to yourself, which goes back to the debate about Desslock - some people think he has "sold out" and no longer represents the tastes of what might be described as the more hardcore end of the RPG market.

@ rune and others as a continuation of my post:

I don't want to tell you to hate oblivion. I want you to recognize that oblivion is not a great of even good RPG because there are qualities that it lacks. have fun with it i did for a short while.

The big problem is the attitude of relativism(what anyone likes is okay), the outright lies fed to the general public by gaming media in addition to the decline of gaming with substance as a whole. we ignore what was done better years ago for the quick dollar.

quick examples:

1. narrative: PST, BG2

2. depth and complexity: Fallout 1&2, Darklands

3.CnC: fallout 1&2, parts of KOTOR 2

4. Challenge: Nethack, SMT nocturn, some other JRPGs

P.S. my original post was a reply to the direction of the thread and not an assault on anyone just to clarify

I think his tastes have veered towards better hiking simulators and FPS action game mechanics, rather than hardcore RPG mechanics.

I have to admit I enjoyed Oblivion but purely for the exploration purposes, the RPG elements took a major back seat.

Originally Posted by pantheon
Agreed - anyone who thinks Oblivion is a good game gets no respect from me.

I think you deserve no respect at all as a human being for thinking that. I don't deserve any respect because I enjoyed Oblivion and thus, feel it is a good game? Well gee. I don't believe in Allah, you going to blow me up too?

Edit: The tone of this post may be offensive, but I honestly think the attitude of people like Pantheon causes a lot of the problems we have nowadays. The simularities are there.

Originally Posted by polyhedron
Those who deny the existence of qualities in gaming are relativists and should be shot.

sounds very??. democratic.

the kind of democracy americans have been so eagerly exporting around the planet.
________
Problems With Nexium

Polyhedron - I don't actually disagree with your tastes (just to clarify). Torment, Fallout, VTM:B, BG2…I love them all. But unfortunately the mass market doesn't agree

I played Oblivion for a while (with mods) but god it was a struggle to finish:

Boring guild quests (mage guild was awful, DB was okay I guess)
Boring main quest
Dreadful copy pasted Oblivion gates
Ditto for the dungeons
World felt too small (someone told me it's supposedly larger in area than Morrowind…it doesn't feel like it, maybe because of the lack of fog/generic landscape)
Even with Francesco's installed, level scaling was still crap - I could understand a few high level bounty hunters coming after me at a high level, but why are goblins more powerful?
Respawning = tedious, relentless killing

@Coaster:

Rehashed inconsistent writing does not fall under depth and complexity it falls under narrative.

2nd aren't both preferable or is that too much to ask?

3. both are undesirable(does not mean they are not accomplished with varying degrees of success)

4. it was? a challenge encompasses more then just equal levels or pieces of equipment. we start with equal chess pieces but are you a challenging opponent?

lastly my relativist comment was a gaff. I hope it did not offend but the position is deeply flawed on a multitude of levels.

Dess was ok in the old days, today his just another media whore. Claiming Oblivion is anything but mediocre crap marks you as a retard.

@baron:

LOL don't take me too seriously. also, Americans are not fascist exporters but we can discuss politics later.

@Coaster:

The old mass market argument. BG2 sold over a million, PST 600000, digital dist. is not counted for VTMB.

the point is you wont get rich off of making great games but you will more then break even. large corps want Bil. profits like wow and Madden hence console focus and degradation of the genre.

I agree that the qualities you've listed are desirable to me. But not to everyone. Take a good example - Torment. I think it's superb on lots of levels but is way too many words for much of today's casual market because (as the RPG Codex might put it) REDDING IS TEH HARD.

Also even if we agree certain qualities are desirable (to us), it may be impossible to achieve them all due to finite resources. If we have a huge number of choices and consequences, this multiplies the amount of writing required for each "branch" so makes it more difficult to achieve your depth and complexity objective - I know this is a point David Gaider has made before (whether or not you agree with him). Fallout has quite a few C&C but all in all is quite a short game. Again I think here Torment just pulls ahead of Fallout since although the C&Cs aren't quite as many or varied, the writing more than makes up for it.

Originally Posted by polyhedron
I love the film "Manos-the hand of fate" because its hilarious and EXTREME. is it a quality film? no. Does Manos suit someone's personal taste? yes.

Wow! I would never have imagined anything saying that. But I guess you enjoy it in a way similar to laughing at a train wreck.

Game is good when it suits perfectly the taste of the player. Whether it needs to have stuff like choices and consequences is dependant on each individual player. For most mainstream gamers the only choice they care about in rpgs is whether to use sword or axe. They spend hundreds of millions on shiny action-rpgs because thats the type of qualities they want from good rpg.

People vote with their wallets whats the best and if your party ends up loosing it doesnt mean you are an "elite". The only thing it does mean is that you and your party is a "minority"-group among the genre. Im sorry thats just how it is.

Originally Posted by coaster
World felt too small (someone told me it's supposedly larger in area than Morrowind…it doesn't feel like it, maybe because of the lack of fog/generic landscape)

I'm pretty sure it's the lack of fog. I heard that the "graphics enhancer" for Morrowind makes you see Balmora from Seyda Neen, which would cause a similar shrinking effect. Regarding Oblivion, I added this image that I took from Frostcraig Spire to the database:

http://www.rpgwatch.com/files/Images…ltIstKlein.jpg

It's also because your movement speed is much greater in Oblivion than Morrowind.