Dragon Age - Collector's Edition and Preorder PR

Originally Posted by skavenhorde
How long is this game…maybe about 30 - 40 hours. That's about usual for a RPG. If they still have 30 - 40 hours of gametime then what exactly is the problem? You're still getting the whole enchalada.

Exactly . . . if they've made the base game shorter and less good so that you feel you have to get the DLC to have a good play experience then that's a sneaky stealth rise. If they release an equally good and lengthy base campaign then have additional premium options on top that's more choice at probably a competitive price for both publisher and gamer.

Anyway, for me, I like the idea of day 1 DLC. I'd rather play the content with my first (and most likely only) playthrough and not really feel like I'd done the whole game then come back for an extra.

Originally Posted by skavenhorde
How long is this game…maybe about 30 - 40 hours. That's about usual for a RPG. If they still have 30 - 40 hours of gametime then what exactly is the problem? You're still getting the whole enchalada.

I've been hearing estimates like 50-60 hours for the main story and maybe even close to 100 hours if you do everything. Tho those kind of estimates are hard to make, since people play at different speeds. Bioware has been saying that it's their biggest game since BGII, so it should be quite large.

I managed to take a bit over 70 hours on my first Mass Effect playthrough (according to the savegame's counter). Tho I did everything and revisited some of the planets for resources and such.

Originally Posted by DArtagnan
I know what I'd prefer if I had to choose between a succesful business and respect from my peers. I'm in the minority though.

You've never had a failed business, have you?

Originally Posted by Dhruin
You've never had a failed business, have you?

Am I required to have a failed business to know what I prefer?

I'm afraid I can't agree.

Originally Posted by Corwin
Having said that, I don't see Bioware following that path; they are not about to risk their hard earned reputation with such despicable marketing practices!!

Remember, though - this is *not* Bioware anymore … it is EA, the SAME folks who sold Tiger Woods tutorials as DLC! IMO, if it *was* Bioware of years past we would all probably be getting this stuff with the game … but then again, that is likely part of the reason they are now part of EA More on DLC later …

As I said, I am wholly sympathetic to the economics of the situation - think of it: if we saw 4% per year inflation for the past 20 years, we would now be paying ~$110 for games rather than $40 - 50. Also:
- Game developers are now professionals rather than hobbyists, folks with families and mortgages rather than young guys in apartments.
- Game companies are now corporations, meaning executive pay (well, that was even worse in the rock star mentality of the early 90's), overhead, insurance, etc, etc.
- More and more games are being developed across a large number of platforms, meaning that there is a constant battle for shelf and mind space.
- So … everything about gaming has gone up - except for the price! Consoles still cost $300 on average, and games $50 - 60 (apparently some N64 games without accessories were as high as $90!)
- So it all comes down to volumes - selling millions of copies at full price - and also creative ways to get users to buy the 'undercoat', the low cost / high profit stuff that goes straight to the bottom line. Also try to limit used game sales, as every used game sale is a potentially lost new game sale in their eyes.

I *love* the IDEA of DLC - just as I do expansions - as they offer fans a way to get more stuff for games they love, and devs / publishers to get quick profits in a low margin game. The problem is with the DLC that is released - as I said, there is a *reason* (beyond Horse Armor) for the distrust.

Good DLC:
- Fallout 3 - while I pound it in my reviews, the concept works: new areas, new weapons, basically getting to play more Fallout 3.
- Rock Band tracks - perfection! For a couple of $ I get a new song to play!
- Anything from Burnout Paradise! They have added loads of great stuff for free, and the $10 DLC added loads of features!

Questionable DLC:
- Virtual money for real money - you are paying the developer for a cheat code, basically. Tales of Vesperia has gotten flack for this.
- Costumes - on the one hand, you know what you're getting, so if you don't want it don't buy it … on the other hand, when these are already on the disc you are clearly paying to unlock content you have already paid for … which is different than mods that unlock cut material. Street Fighter IV.
- Dead Space weapons - see costumes.
- Unlocking stuff you will get for free - imagine playing a RPG and getting an offer to buy the Sword of Justice +5 when you are level 2 for $2 … only to find it lying in a chest when you are in a quest area at level 5. That happens often … games like NFS are notorious for it.
- Resident Evil V 'Versus Pack - you are getting a new mode, which is nice … but it is already on the disc.

Bad DLC:
- Rock Band 'exclusives' - we have the Wii and PSP versions, but more than a couple of times my kids have seen stuff released as 'exclusive' for PS3 or X360. Why?
- DLC Patches - when something is released as DLC but is really a patch with a couple of skins and maps tossed in, and paid for by the DLC. Stranglehold's multiplayer DLC was thrashed for this.
- Paying for stuff you thought you got - Soul Caliber IV touted Yoda and Darth Vader … none of the ads said you would get one and have to spend $5 for the other.

Also, why would they want to screw the PvE balance of the game by giving overpowered items to players who preorder the game or buy the collector's edition?
This mentality puzzles me.

Originally Posted by DArtagnan
Am I required to have a failed business to know what I prefer?

I'm afraid I can't agree.

So do or did you own a non-failed business?

Originally Posted by Gorath
So do or did you own a non-failed business?

I'm assuming he is saying 'no, but that doesn't make me an expert'

Originally Posted by txa1265
I'm assuming he is saying 'no, but that doesn't make me an expert'

In his case, it's usually more like, "no, but I'm still an expert".

Originally Posted by JDR13
In his case, it's usually more like, "no, but I'm still an expert".

Thanks for fixing my broken grammar!

Originally Posted by txa1265
Bad DLC:
- Rock Band 'exclusives' - we have the Wii and PSP versions, but more than a couple of times my kids have seen stuff released as 'exclusive' for PS3 or X360. Why?
- DLC Patches - when something is released as DLC but is really a patch with a couple of skins and maps tossed in, and paid for by the DLC. Stranglehold's multiplayer DLC was thrashed for this.
- Paying for stuff you thought you got - Soul Caliber IV touted Yoda and Darth Vader … none of the ads said you would get one and have to spend $5 for the other.

I see the difference now and can add one more to your bad DLC. The Sims 3 Store. http://store.thesims3.com/

I don't mind expansions or even "stuff packs" (which basically amounts to new clothing or items and thats it), but this is insane what they did with the store. They turned it into Pogo and now you have to pay to download individual items. But the great thing is that I'm really not that interested in Sims that I have to have all that stuff. They can take their store and shove it.

I'll admit though that The Sims 3 didn't feel like they held anything back. There are still plenty of items within the original game. It just seems wrong for some reason to have to pay for each individual little item for a game.

If EA or whoever tried this out with one of their RPGs where you could buy better swords or whatnot, then I would still do the same thing and basically tell them to shove it. No way I'm paying for that.

Still with all that said the heart of the matter is: Do I feel cheated with the original game? I gotta say, no. The Sims 3 still has tons of stuff in it and is sorta fun (not my most favorite game, but still not bad to play every now and then). I just choose not to buy any of the extra content that they have at their store. I'll wait for the expansion.

That is why I wouldn't call the Sims3 'bad' DLC … because I agree with your assessment. I have played some (my first Sims game) and had some fun, but not for me, and I certainly wasn't buying anything.

I would likely call it questionable, as it takes what was previously free or bundled and makes it much more expensive. You don't *have* to buy it, but nor do they tout the fact that the same way of doing things that would cost you X in Sims 2 would now cost you much more. Of course, neither does anyone in any other market …

Originally Posted by txa1265
Thanks for fixing my broken grammar!

Come now, play nice

In this case of my own personal opinion of what I'd prefer - I gotta say I feel like more of an expert than any of you

I'll rephrase it, though, just for you.

If someone offered me the choice of a million dollars or the respect from my peers - which in this case would be my target audience - I'd go with the respect.

Not that anything is ever so black and white, but I kinda like to pretend I have some idea of my own moral center.

In the case of Troika - I really doubt they're suffering horribly today, but if they are I might better understand if they'd want monetary success instead. But they've got our respect, and that should count for something.

I've lived many years of my life off what corresponds to worse than simply a failed business - and yet I never really felt like money would solve my primary problems. Then again, I don't live in a place where you either have a successful business - or you're somehow worth less than those who do.

Thing is, running a business is far more than just money. It represents your dreams, your ambitions, your energy, and not least a feeling of responsibility for your employees, customers, and other people who rely on you. If it fails, it hurts, even if you don't get financially ruined in the process. In terms of psychological shock and trauma it's right up there with divorce or the death of a child.

And no, I don't think you'd be so flippant about it if you had actually experienced it, or had someone close to you experience it.

Originally Posted by DArtagnan
In the case of Troika - I really doubt they're suffering horribly today, but if they are I might better understand if they'd want monetary success instead. But they've got our respect, and that should count for something.

They are by far my favorite developers ever and yet they're gone. They still have my respect, but I wish at the time there were more options for them to obtain more profit on each individual game. If so they might still be around today.

As for respect, yes it counts for something, but yet the hard reality is that they're still gone. No more games from them ever. I don't know about you, but I would of prefered if they had been able to survive. Maybe showing the other guys how to make a quality game for a profit.

Originally Posted by skavenhorde
They are by far my favorite developers ever and yet they're gone. They still have my respect, but I wish at the time there were more options for them to obtain more profit on each individual game. If so they might still be around today.

As for respect, yes it counts for something, but yet the hard reality is that they're still gone. No more games from them ever. I don't know about you, but I would of prefered if they had been able to survive. Maybe showing the other guys how to make a quality game for a profit.

Well, another hard reality is that their games targeted a relatively small audience and they never released a game without major technical difficulties.

I wouldn't mind if they'd released DLC with the same care as they designed their games - but the problem is that DLC, as a concept, is appealing to the business side of things.

I'm not saying you can't create worthwhile DLC that truly adds to a game, and have it cost something reasonable. I'm saying that based on the industry in general, the tendency will be to create content that requires little effort - or even hold back content - and then charging something that's not really consistent with what you're getting as a customer. The reason you can get away with this, is that the cost is below the point where the average consumer will think REALLY carefully about his purchase. Of course, some will and some will write off DLC completely, but I'm afraid the average dude will look upon this as petty cash and not really care if he gets what he pays for.

There will be exceptions and some developers will release wonderful DLC at reasonable costs, no doubt, but I'm afraid it's gonna be a rare sight.

Troika - being who they are - simply didn't have it in them to create a succesful business, and I doubt DLC would have changed anything - except maybe with the cost of compromising their creative vision.

Originally Posted by DArtagnan
Am I required to have a failed business to know what I prefer?

I'm afraid I can't agree.

I think in general people are way more likely to have a wildly misguided opinion of just how much they'd stick to their principles in a tough situation when they haven't been in that tough situation.

Originally Posted by DArtagnan
If someone offered me the choice of a million dollars or the respect from my peers - which in this case would be my target audience - I'd go with the respect.

Loss aversion is way more powerful though innit. An offer of something over and above what you already have is way easier to turn down than an equivalent loss of something you already have and are hugely emotionally invested in.

It's not really important that you believe me when I state my opinion, but at least let me state it and accept that it is, indeed, my opinion.

If I'm fooling myself or I'm not capable of that which I think I am, it can only be my own problem - now can't it.

Maybe if you understood my background and my very passionate stance on our monetary system, and my attitude towards the modern industry - you'd be more inclined to believe I'm serious about this.

You don't know me in real life, though, so is it really important?

Originally Posted by Prime Junta
Thing is, running a business is far more than just money. It represents your dreams, your ambitions, your energy, and not least a feeling of responsibility for your employees, customers, and other people who rely on you. If it fails, it hurts, even if you don't get financially ruined in the process. In terms of psychological shock and trauma it's right up there with divorce or the death of a child.

And no, I don't think you'd be so flippant about it if you had actually experienced it, or had someone close to you experience it.

QFT.

Never having done my own business for this reason, I can't cite actual experience … but I can with the death of child … and that was what sprung to mind. The reply came off as naive to the extreme.

DArtagnan - I think you are confusing having confidence in your moral center with having a clue about what experiencing a situation is like. It is like claiming to know what you would do in the heat of battle from having read about it ad watched it on TV.