Dragon Age - Collector's Edition and Preorder PR

Originally Posted by txa1265
QFT.

Never having done my own business for this reason, I can't cite actual experience … but I can with the death of child … and that was what sprung to mind. The reply came off as naive to the extreme.

DArtagnan - I think you are confusing having confidence in your moral center with having a clue about what experiencing a situation is like. It is like claiming to know what you would do in the heat of battle from having read about it ad watched it on TV.

Don't you think you're underestimating me just a little?

Don't tell me having a successful business has anything to do with putting your life on the line in the heat of battle. Maybe that's how SOME see it, but not I. This isn't Japan.

But take care to note that I would never equate a business with my entire life - and if I started my own business - it would be about the money only as an absolute necessity and about getting respect and control first. It wouldn't be about maximising profit - and it would only work as long as I was able to maintain creative integrity. Maybe that's why I haven't been able to start a business - but ironically, it's what I'm trying to do - but it will never be a big success. At the most, it'd be about staying afloat and having a creative outlet.

But as I said, this isn't black and white and there are few scenarios as clear cut as money vs respect. There are gray areas.

Maybe if you gave me the benefit of the doubt, and believed that I'm just not like most people.

For better or worse, I can't say.

Originally Posted by txa1265
DArtagnan - I think you are confusing having confidence in your moral center with having a clue about what experiencing a situation is like. It is like claiming to know what you would do in the heat of battle from having read about it ad watched it on TV.

I tend to agree.

The ability to abstract the own thoughts & behaviour from theoretically available environments into "real life" is imho very, very difficult, and hard to master.

It's nice you all agree how I can't actually have an opinion without being uninformed

Hehe - you guys must be right since you represent the majority

Originally Posted by DArtagnan
Don't tell me having a successful business has anything to do with putting your life on the line in the heat of battle. Maybe that's how SOME see it, but not I. This isn't Japan.

Actually it is just like putting your life on the line. I think I've mentioned a few times that my mother owns and operates a motel basically in the middle of nowhere. Her bread and butter patrons come twice a year during picking season. If they stopped coming, then her life and mine would literally be destroyed because a chain of events would unfold for both of us. Not to mention the other people employed at her motel.

This is the reality of owning a business. If it goes down it ALWAYS has a huge impact on the people involved in it.

Oh and her business is in America, not Japan

Even if you really did value respect above all else, surely in a small business situation if faced with the choice you'd be better off staying in the game with compromises in the hopes of having a better opportunity later to do what you really want to do?

Originally Posted by Benedict
Even if you really did value respect above all else, surely in a small business situation if faced with the choice you'd be better off staying in the game with compromises in the hopes of having a better opportunity later to do what you really want to do?

As I said, I don't believe in running a business based on compromising my creative integrity. Naturally, if it's a non-art related compromise - like perhaps cutting a level or some other content that isn't essential to the art, then maybe. But it's a grey area and it BEING a grey area - is the very reason you have so many people working happily in the industry because they don't see the compromises as a big deal.

I do.

Originally Posted by DArtagnan
As I said, I don't believe in running a business based on compromising my creative integrity. Naturally, if it's a non-art related compromise - like perhaps cutting a level or some other content that isn't essential to the art, then maybe. But it's a grey area and it BEING a grey area - is the very reason you have so many people working happily in the industry because they don't see the compromises as a big deal.

I do.

So you're happier wasting creative potential entirely for the sake of creative integrity than you would be accomplishing the best you can given the constraints of the marketplace?

Originally Posted by Benedict
So you're happier wasting creative potential entirely for the sake of creative integrity than you would be accomplishing the best you can given the constraints of the marketplace?

I'm happier where I am, than I would be working for Bioware, Bethsoft, og similar - yes.

To clarify - it's about accepting your own limits based on what you want to accomplish. I'm trying my best to develop a game at the moment, but I realise that I will - at best - be able to just stay afloat. Because my game would not be of interest to the masses, and in fact I'd be lucky if 5-10K people would be interested. I'm trying to see if I can put my money where my mouth is - so to speak.

But I would never put myself in a situation where I had to compromise who I was - as a person - to stay within a reasonable comfort level.

I have that luxury - and I understand myself in this way. Not in all ways, but in this way of where I can compromise and be comfortable with myself.

That's not so say everyone has that luxury - and I wouldn't presume to speak for anyone but myself. All I'm saying is that *I* would not sacrifice my integrity for the sake of monetary sucess.

It's really very VERY simple - and whether you can accept that about me or not - is honestly almost completely irrelevant. As long as you accept that's what I personally believe.

Having a choir singing about how wrong I am to believe that - can't possibly convince me. I need solid arguments of which you've presented none. That's because you assume I'm talking about a business as you understand it - based on your own perception of what a business has to be and not what it COULD be.

With all that said - I seem to recall how these things go.

People have challenged my opinion - and I clarify. Then I'm told that I'm hogging the thread - because I care about being understood. Then I'm told no one cares about my opinion - which I explain is quite ok, but I just like to clarify. Then I get 3-4 people piling on about how wrong I must be - and how arrogant I am for having such an extreme point of view.

All very understandable, really, but I don't think it's worth our time. It's just one guy's opinion - and nothing more.

I'll find another thread

Originally Posted by DArtagnan
Having a choir singing about how wrong I am to believe that - can't possibly convince me. I need solid arguments of which you've presented none. That's because you assume I'm talking about a business as you understand it - based on your own perception of what a business has to be and not what it COULD be.

You're not talking about a business. You're talking about a hobby that just possibly might pay for itself plus a bit of pocket money somewhere along the line. A business is something you live on, and (usually) something other people who work for you also live on.

That's not the same thing, and I believe that this semantic issue is what's making your position sound so naive.

Originally Posted by DArtagnan
It's nice you all agree how I can't actually have an opinion without being uninformed

Hehe - you guys must be right since you represent the majority

And as always when people are not clapping and telling you how great you are, you are acting stubborn, don't even try to understand the other side, insist on your position and are totally centered on yourself, thinking the world is against you.

If you have no experience in the mentioned fields or something comparable you certainly have an opinion - and you are entitled to one; as we all know, opinions are like assholes. But your opinion is unqualified. You are safely sitting in your ivory tower, trying to tell the guys on the street how they should be doing their job.

Originally Posted by Gorath
And as always when people are not clapping and telling you how great you are, you are acting stubborn, don't even try to understand the other side, insist on your position and are totally centered on yourself, thinking the world is against you.

If you have no experience in the mentioned fields or something comparable you certainly have an opinion - and you are entitled to one; as we all know, opinions are like assholes. But your opinion is unqualified. You are safely sitting in your ivory tower, trying to tell the guys on the street how they should be doing their job.

I haven't even mentioned anything about what other people should do - this is about me and what I would prefer. I'm not in the same situation as anyone else - so how would I know. I just know that if *I* was Troika, i'd be happy about the respect they've earned - monetary success be damned. But that's *ME* - not them.

You think I seek understanding or admiration? And around here? I think I've made it clear that it's not exactly a priority with me. Understanding, sure, but that will never happen with everyone. A handful of you can't look beyond your dislike and rationalise logically - or at least you're refusing to do that. Why that is, I can't be sure - but it's not something I consider my problem. Logic and reason is not for everyone, afterall.

All I seek is to be able to speak my mind - and so far it's been possible.

Originally Posted by DArtagnan
You think I seek understanding or admiration? And around here? I think I've made it clear that it's not exactly a priority with me.

You did say that you'd rather have the respect of your peers than a million dollars.

Just as a polite notice, PJ, I have you on ignore - so I can't read what you're saying.

I'm guessing it's a "polite" explanation of why I'm wrong - though you wouldn't be fooling me

---

The thing is, I can't defend myself against 4-5 people everytime I speak my mind in a way that apparently offends them.

You guys are stuck in your initial emotional reaction based on what you THINK I said - and I bet you haven't even bothered to read my clarifications.

This isn't about being a superior being or judging others. I speak only for myself and what I would or wouldn't do. I'm not in the same position as Bioware or anyone else - but the point is: NOR WOULD I EVER BE. Because I don't want to put myself there.

If I was already there, then i'm sure i'd compromise because that's apparently what you do in big business.

Guess what, that's why I will never EVER be a part of a big business. It's by design - and it can't be that hard to fathom.

In any case, if any of you are really interested in pursuing this with me - and not, as I suspect, simply interested in agreeing how pompous, arrogant, misguided, uninformed, etc. I am - you can PM me.

Otherwise, let's leave the thread in peace.

I'll live with the last post misunderstandings this time

Originally Posted by DArtagnan

Hehe - you guys must be right since you represent the majority

The majority is rarely right.
The secret is squishing them before they even get the chance to retaliate.

Originally Posted by DArtagnan
Just as a polite notice, PJ, I have you on ignore - so I can't read what you're saying.

I'm guessing it's a "polite" explanation of why I'm wrong - though you wouldn't be fooling me

I know. You already told me. I'm politely ignoring your ignore, though. I kinda like this mode of discussion, actually.

The thing is, I can't defend myself against 4-5 people everytime I speak my mind in a way that apparently offends them.

You guys are stuck in your initial emotional reaction based on what you THINK I said - and I bet you haven't even bothered to read my clarifications.

I did. It's relatively clear from them that you misspoke in your first post. If you had said, "I'd rather make games on my own dollar than compromise my creative integrity by pandering to the lowest common denominator," which, I believe, is what you actually intended to say, you would have gotten a rather a different reaction than you did to what you actually said -- that you'd rather have a failing business than compromise your creative integrity.

Namely, what you actually said implied that if you had an existing business, you would rather let it fail than compromise your creative integrity. People quite rightly questioned your experience in being involved in a failing business. Had you said what you actually meant -- that you'd never start a game business in the first place, because it would require you to compromise your creative integrity -- I would wager that hardly anyone would have objected.

And, you could have avoided the whole mess simply by saying "Sorry, I misspoke -- what I meant was…" etc. etc. Instead, you claimed that everybody else is illogical, and emotion-ridden, and therefore THEY fail to understand what you said. That rubs people the wrong way.

Admit it, DA -- the communication failure was yours. It's not like it was a mortal sin or anything; such bloopers happen, and people deal with it. It only gets annoying when you blame such failures on your public's lack of ability to think rationally.

Originally Posted by DArtagnan
I'm happier where I am, than I would be working for Bioware, Bethsoft, og similar - yes.

Ah, now that certainly doesn't sound like what I (and seemingly others) took your original post to mean. If you're saying that you'd rather have worked for a company like Troika that earned respect even if that company then failed rather than work for a company like Bethsoft etc that makes more sense. With the fluid labour market these days from an employee perspective there's no permanence or major emotional investment anyway, so better to work on good stuff while you can even if it's not sustainable longer term.

I think a lot of us read your original post though more as if you were saying that had you been in a senior position at troika you'd happily do it all over again rather than make some compromises and stay alive at the cost of some respect. Hence everyone asking you all the questions about whether or not you've had a small business fail, as if it was your company that either compromised or went under we suspect you'd feel differently.

Note that's more about your hypothetical company of the sort of size as Troika, your actual current game development sounds more like a hobby that's worth doing to your tastes as the costs of failure are more limited.

Out of interest what are you developing?

Edit - Bah, damn your quick fingers PJ, damn them to hell.

Originally Posted by Benedict
Ah, now that certainly doesn't sound like what I (and seemingly others) took your original post to mean. If you're saying that you'd rather have worked for a company like Troika that earned respect even if that company then failed rather than work for a company like Bethsoft etc that makes more sense. With the fluid labour market these days from an employee perspective there's no permanence or major emotional investment anyway, so better to work on good stuff while you can even if it's not sustainable longer term.

That's definitely a lot closer to what i meant, yeah.

I think a lot of us read your original post though more as if you were saying that had you been in a senior position at troika you'd happily do it all over again rather than make some compromises and stay alive at the cost of some respect. Hence everyone asking you all the questions about whether or not you've had a small business fail, as if it was your company that either compromised or went under we suspect you'd feel differently.

Of course not - I would never be happy to fail. But given the BLACK AND WHITE imaginary choice between monetary success and respect - well, you know. That's not the same as saying I would enjoy or downplay failure as a business, it's simply a logical position void of any emotional context.

Note that's more about your hypothetical company of the sort of size as Troika, your actual current game development sounds more like a hobby that's worth doing to your tastes as the costs of failure are more limited.

That's exactly right. I've placed myself in a position where a failed business won't mean the end of my world. I would never invest everything I had in something as uncertain as my game becoming a success - as I expect it won't.

Out of interest what are you developing?

Well, it's still WAY off and I don't want to be the new Grimoire guy….. But let's call it the ultimate evolution of Dungeon Master - with the limits imposed by being just one guy. The problem is that I'm not big into coding and art - but I do OK. I have to do everything myself, and that's why it's a gargantuan undertaking. It's only possible because of XNA and stuff like Visual Studio. I have many years of experience with Photoshop - so there's something. But static 2D art is all I can do, so it's a huge challenge where any kind of animation is concerned.

The only area I like to consider myself strong in - is pure game design. As in gameplay. This game will have a character system I've been developing for many years, and one that I'm rather proud of. Also, it will be the kind of turn-based combat system I've wanted to see in a CRPG for years. A system where a slash of a sword MEANS something, and a system with interrupts and counter-moves.

But I'll reveal something when I have something worthwhile to show off - and all I have at the moment is an engine capable of displaying a dungeon that you can walk around in, and a primitive editor. I have some test-stage art that I'm ok with - but it's far from anything I'd release to the public. I have to do all this with a full-time job and deal with other stuff like troublesome women (well, I'm a bit of a moron when it comes to my own emotions)

I've also developed a chunk of the character generator - and I have much of the art for that in place, as well.

Originally Posted by Benedict
Edit - Bah, damn your quick fingers PJ, damn them to hell.

Don't do that, Benedict. I just had a minor accident at the gym that put one of them out of commission.

Originally Posted by Prime Junta
Don't do that, Benedict. I just had a minor accident at the gym that put one of them out of commission.

Tried to touch the wrong girl? Or tried to write forum posts while lifting weights?