IT vs English Philology. I need serious suggestions.

I have no idea what to do with myself after school. I'm thinking about two ways of continuing my education:

1. IT
2. English philology

Lets start from Philology:
I love English and I'd love to learn it to speak fluently and work with that language. The problem is: what do I need to be translator? As far as I know philology alone doesn't give me much qualifications… while philology is not an easy major of studies and there is full of history and other not very useful subjects.

IT:
I'm interested in it, I'd like to learn to write a successor of Age of Decadence and release best RPG evar, or something like that BUT I don't like math. Sure, I'm not total dumbass when it comes to math but I'm not good either. I doubt mediocre is enough. I also know that studies alone give me just basis and I have to learn myself most of the things.


I'd love some suggestions from you guys, especially from Poland, but everyone is welcome. What should I choose? Where could I work after studies (especially after English philology because I don't really know about any specific jobs, except english teacher which I DON'T want to be).

Damn witcher-like lesser evil choices with important consequences :/

You don't want to be an english teacher, but I imagine that's one of the very few jobs that a degree in English Philology would qualify you for.

IT, on the other hand, would give you a range of options.

Just pragmatically, IT's an easy choice.

However, if your heart is telling you "English Philology and nothing else!" then go that direction.

Another idea would be to see if there are options you are overlooking. If this feels like you're being forced to choose between two things you're not really that thrilled about, pick up some books that help you figure out your strengths and what sort of jobs you'd really enjoy.

As you know, this is an incredibly important decision. It will dictate what you spend at least half the rest of your waking life doing. Don't jump until you know exactly what your options are.

It can help to talk to people in the profession, too. Know any philologists? How about IT guys? Talk to them, pick their brains about the challenges of the field, job opportunities, etc.

Hey, Konjad. Well, in general, an IT profession seems better (czy w zasadzie jakikolwiek kierunek ukończony na jakiejś Polibudzie, wydaje mi się że to o wiele bardziej przyszłościowe), but if you you're not all that crazy about math and stuff, then I dunno, you'd have to force yourself. If you feel you have the determination, I'd say go for it - if you apply and get accepted, that is.

As for English 'philology'* , well, of course you don't want to be a teacher. I'm a student of English on my final year, and that's the last thing I wanna be, haha - although I do believe there is a significant difference between teaching at a primary/high school and teaching at a university/college (zawsze też można być lektorem w szkole językowej, ale o ile się orientuję to wielu wykonuje to jako dodatkową pracę). Being a translator can be quite profitable, on the other hand, if you can make it/have the talent.

IT and other technologies sound like a better future, but one of my professors insists that people after linguistic studies do not have problems when looking for a job. Of course, you must make that decision yourself, choose what feels best to you. And hey, you can always quit after a year and change your direction of studies, if you don't like it - I know it may sound like a big deal, but really, it isn't, I know a lot of people who did this.

I'll tell you a bit more in a PM, since I don't want to spam this thread with more Polish.

*my translation teacher kept telling us that this isn't really the best word for it For example, the 'Instytut Filologii Angielskiej' in my city is simply 'Institute of English' in English.

Thank you for your suggestions guys. I think I'll go for IT in the end. I will pass extended English and math exams and basic Polish. If my score at math is good enough I'll go IT, if not I'll go English Philology

BTW. Krzychu, is fourth subject in matura useful, or should I limit myself just to learning math?

Anyway still one and half year of high school to go, so you're free to write more in that time

IT on university level is a lot of math, at least in the first two years. And we're not talking about the simple stuff with numbers. All the math you had at school will be repeated in dry, scientific way, in the first 4-6 weeks of the first semester. Then the fun starts.

So if you want to become a developer, choose carefully.

Well, as far as I know, stuff changed since my matura (we were the test subjects of the "new matura"; it wasn't pretty), so I'm not sure, but if you think that might need a subject later, to apply elsewhere, then add it to your matura. The more, the better, since you don't really lose anything, right?* Of course, you can still do an additional subject after high school if you desire, but the rules for that changed too, so I dunno what's the time/number of tries limit. One more thing: try to go for advanced Polish, especially if you'll want to study language. Needless to say, check out the requirements of various universities in advance. The recruitment system and procedures in my time were a complete and utter mess.

My information may be outdated, but I'm sure you'll hear what you need to know a hundred times in school.

*Or do you? I don't know anymore.

My son has an IT degree, and if you don't like Maths, then I'd suggest trying something else; it's maths centric. From my understanding, people who live in non-english speaking countries who are fluent in english have no problems getting jobs as most businesses need such people in this international environment where many 'transactions' between companies are carried out in english.

As mentioned, a Computer Science degree have tons of math you'll never use (unless you focus on computer graphics). There's usually also another degree called Information Technology which include little to none mathematics. It's mostly focused on "high-level" development and management. I suggest you look closer at what kind of computer-related degrees your colleges and universities offer.

On game development, I'd suggest you put your dreams aside an go for a more "permanent" job.

You're not out of game development if you read english

As Corwin knows dialogue writers is really important for a lot of games… I would go so far as to say without them there'd be no good RPGs…

Is it that you are not good at math? or that you simply think it is boring? If you are really bad at math… don't go the developer route… at least not game development it is really math heavy! If you think it is boring it might just get more fun after you realize how much you can do with it.

. It's mostly focused on "high-level" development and management. I suggest you look closer at what kind of computer-related degrees your colleges and universities offer.

Yes, that's very true, that is usually called IT here….. you can do a lot of things which is not math related. We call the really math heavy one "Computer Science"

I learned programming without too much maths - but my way was unusual in the way that it wasn't a university training. Instead, I did/had what we call in German an "Umschulung", my English dictionary calls that a "re-training" or a "re-education".

My training was much, much more practically oriented - yet in the German job advertisements I see companies almost only asking for university grades.

Well, many high-level educations are based on traditional out-of-date thinking, and for some reason they still think math is a huge part of coding. That's not to say it isn't, but I'd say overall it's much more about creative and logical thinking in general, as in your ability to solve problems in more ways than one - because that's all you do when you're coding. It's all about getting the damn computer to do exactly what you want, which is almost impossible - so you could say coding is basically about your ability to manipulate what you steal (or "borrow") into what you want and compromise when needed

Very, very few people re-invent the wheel when they sit down to code something, so I'd say the vast majority of coders out there are simply taking what they can use from others, and doing their own thing with it. I don't know anyone who doesn't - and I know quite a few people who code for a living.

But, if you're looking to program performance-related games (like modern action games) or go heavy into 3D development, then math will be essential on a relatively high level. Age of Decadence is an indie production, and for that you don't need a formal education. You can set up a small production like that with friends you trust and a BOATLOAD of ambition and drive, not to mention the will to do without means beyond survival for a few years. That's much, MUCH more important than a piece of paper proving you're capable of something that's not really relevant to what you actually want to do.

So I guess it's about how bad you want to create something special, versus how much you just want to get a secure comfortable job.

If you want the latter, I can recommend the IT support sector as you can get decent pay and they will always be needed. Math is irrelevant more or less, but you'll need some to complete a relevant education. I'm not familiar with the job situation in your country, but in Denmark - you'll always be able to get such a job if you've got decent papers and a history of being trustworthy. If you're just out of school, the last part is hard to prove - but you gotta start somewhere.

Originally Posted by DArtagnan
Well, many high-level educations are based on traditional out-of-date thinking, and for some reason they still think math is a huge part of coding. That's not to say it isn't, but I'd say overall it's much more about creative and logical thinking in general, as in your ability to solve problems in more ways than one - because that's all you do when you're coding.

But as you mention, optimization is *all* math, as is algorithm development, and so on. A programmer without math skills is very limited indeed.

Originally Posted by txa1265
But as you mention, optimization is *all* math, as is algorithm development, and so on. A programmer without math skills is very limited indeed.

So IT is useless?

Originally Posted by txa1265
But as you mention, optimization is *all* math, as is algorithm development, and so on. A programmer without math skills is very limited indeed.

"Without math skills" is an extreme of what I'm saying. I'm saying you don't need a formal education in high level math to succeed unless you're specifically going to deal with high performance applications.

Something like Age of Decadence doesn't require optimisation on the same level as Doom 4. Two very, very different things - and it sounds to me like he'd be more interested in the design aspects of making a game. If you will, then AoD is most likely made using a high level language and I'd be surprised if there's any assembler code in there. The challenge of making such a game work is most assuredly not "all math" - and I'd even say that the math that IS part of it, is on a different level than what you see in high performance engines.

IT is a gigantic field, and coding involving high level math is but one way of going forward with that.

Optimisation is definitely not all math in a traditional sense. It's about logic and creativity, as in your ability to think outside the box and come up with new and more efficient solutions. Math is a part of that, definitely, but it's not all it takes. You can make do with high school/college level math in the vast majority of coding involved with an indie product of the scale mentioned, as long as you have the grasp of what's what when learning new things.

But I'm not really interested in going in-depth in a debate of that kind.

I feel what I said is true, and that's just a single opinion out of many he needs to look at for a decision if he wants input.

I don't think we fundamentally disagree … and IT is about much more than programming … some areas are math heavy, others not at all. If I was hiring someone I would want someone with skills to adapt to whatever situation arose.

Originally Posted by txa1265
But as you mention, optimization is *all* math, as is algorithm development, and so on. A programmer without math skills is very limited indeed.

Well, I'd say "that depends", but I must admit that I'm not an expert.

Even worse, I've got a slight Dyscalculia, so although I was one of the best programmers in out training group, I was severely hindered by my … "problem".

Math is defnitively needed, especially in terms of graphics, not so much when you work with SQL, for example. But on the other hand, developing calculating apps for companies also needs some strength in maths …


Edit : What IT desperately needs, imho, is people who are actually able to translate "tech nerd speech" into "§normal user speech" … In my opinion, there is a definitive lack of people who are able to write good documentations for everyone's use.

JUstt take a look at the Linux world : "Real users don't need documentations; they just look at the source code comments" could be a rather cynical view on that. Documentattions are there, sure, but not for everything, and not at all in native languages (except in English, of course, oh the almighty English !)

People just do rather programming neat stuff than documenting it so that other can actually use it. It isn't without reason, imho, that Linux was a "techie thing" for such a long time.

And the "Linux to the Desktop" will never really be, because - as I see it - Linux people don't actually want it !

Without knowing English, by the way, one is utterly lost with Linux - at least considering the core mechanisms. Even today, configuring stuff isn't as trivial as it imho should be, and one is sooner or later forced to read some English-language-only Man-Page.

IT just needs "bridge-people", imho, who are able to help and translate people and stuff into the "everyday world".

That's just my opinion.

Isn't a degree in math only required if you're doing the actual design (i.e. the graphics)? of the game? As I remember, Bioware (and possibly a few other developers) have English majors or even philosohy majors hired to create the story, the setting and such things while artists? take care of making the actual game, e.g. the skeletons for the models used in the game?

Originally Posted by aries100
Isn't a degree in math only required if you're doing the actual design (i.e. the graphics)? of the game? As I remember, Bioware (and possibly a few other developers) have English majors or even philosohy majors hired to create the story, the setting and such things while artists? take care of making the actual game, e.g. the skeletons for the models used in the game?

That is game specific … writing a story isn't an IT related field last I checked

Echo Echo I wrote the same thing earlier in the thread…

Originally Posted by aries100
Isn't a degree in math only required if you're doing the actual design (i.e. the graphics)? of the game? As I remember, Bioware (and possibly a few other developers) have English majors or even philosohy majors hired to create the story, the setting and such things while artists? take care of making the actual game, e.g. the skeletons for the models used in the game?

You can't equate design with graphics. I'm not sure why you'd think so. Maybe you're thinking about visual aesthetics in particular?

In fact, I'd say that game design and development is one of the least tangible things you can do in terms of knowing exactly what skill-sets will be relevant.

For an artist, there shouldn't be a high math degree required - because you generally only deal with basic math. Most modern development tools do all the math work for you, so you just use whatever application is popular, like 3D Studio and focus on what you're good at. Math will help, though, as there's a ton of 3D calculations involved behind the scenes, and any extra understanding will help. Not that I'm an expert, and I can only speak as far as my own work is concerned. I think every development is different, and there's bound to be smaller productions where integral knowledge of engine implementation is required.

If you're part of the engine development or asset implementation into the engine, that's another story.

With all that said, I don't think I've ever seen a high profile game development job ad that didn't list "Computer Science" as a requisite, and there's no doubt that if you want to get into the modern gaming industry (as in non-indie) you MUST have Computer Science or something similar almost no matter what you intend to do. Computer Science, at least the one I tried in Denmark, is quite heavy on math and you go through all kinds of math related coding like functional programming. It's what I meant with "out of date" because many years are wasted if we're talking about reality vs theory. But that's true for MANY MANY kinds of education.

Basically, companies put in all those requirements because they can, and because they need to filter out based on some kind of preference. That's not to say that educations aren't very important - and naturally they are - but I find it's often just a bunch of largely irrelevant knowledge that may or may not come in handy for the actual job you're going to perform.

But the piece of paper itself is very important, and that's why I think it's wise to go that way if you want to get in with the big boys. I just find it tremendously sad that most companies don't allow for a wider skillset and test people for the specific job in question more than they do. Maybe that's different in the US, though.

In Denmark, your piece of paper is the single most important thing in terms of getting the job.

I know in the US, the "norm" for getting into the gaming industry used to be to start out as a beta tester (or similar) and work your way up. I'm not sure if that holds true today, because the industry is so much bigger and teams are so separated on a big project. But I think if you're very young, it might be a great way to start.