Arcania - Demo Released

[DArtagnan]

Just a little sidetrack:

It might sound odd, but I think Ultima IX was the first game to accomplish that feeling of an outdoor living breathing world. Not the best game, otherwise, but I was certainly floored in that way.

In terms of indoor areas, I think games like Ultima Underworld and System Shock remain the best - and so many of these modern CRPGs fail completely to recreate that kind of fully realised inside world.

I'm still waiting for something to combine the two, and I find the Gothics quite bad in terms of indoor environments.

Ultima IX, incidentally, had fantastic dungeons. So, in many ways I think that game was ahead of its time. Maybe if it wasn't so messy, technically, and maybe if it wasn't called Ultima - it would have been a game that got more respect. I think it gets criticised somewhat unfairly.

 

[holeraw]

Since everyone's reporting experiences I might as well, even though I don't have much of an experience to report - I gave it a shot yesterday and... it was unplayable... I got a slideshow even on the lowest settings. Now my pc isn't the epitome of high end or anything and well... it's a laptop, albeit a quite powerful one which allows me to play all the games I've tried, most of them on highest settings, without any problems.

I'm nonetheless assuming that it's not a problem of the game itself but rather a matter of it not getting along with my hardware due to my rotten luck, and I'll leave it at that since I didn't care much for this game anyway.

 

[Maylander]

That's one thing I love about the Gothics - there is no "indoor", you just walk into a house or cave as if it was outdoors. Fantastic! I have no idea why very few others do that.

World of Warcraft also has a similar approach to houses and castles, but that's an MMO so that goes without saying. Still, the world in WoW is very well crafted. In fact, WoW would make an excellent SP RPG if Blizzard decided to simply re-use the world, grant players a faster means of travel and craft a solid story that would bring you from location to location. They'd also have to add a lot more NPCs and so on to replace players. Imagine exploring Stormwind City, Duskwood, Stranglethorn Vale and so on as part of a single player RPG where the locations had captivating stories/sidequests and NPCs similar to Gothic. Levelling would have to be speeded up obviously, and the amount of nonsense collect/kill quests lowered significantly. Basically, every zone would have to be a whole lot faster than it currently is, lasting maybe a few hours with a few interesting quest lines and so on.

Anyone, enough rambling, I got carried away there. Still, it's not a bad idea, because the world really is very well crafted..

Edit: Was meant as a reply to DArtagnan's comment about indoor/outdoor.

 

[DArtagnan]

That's one thing I love about the Gothics - there is no "indoor", you just walk into a house or cave as if it was outdoors. Fantastic! I have no idea why very few others do that.

It's a big technical challenge to make the world stream seamlessly.

But, since the vast majority of caves in the Gothics are just boring and empty (ok, they have some samey skellies/loot - but nothing too interesting) - there aren't many states to keep track of. If you make a complicated dungeon with multiple states, it becomes more of a challenge to design a streaming engine that can effectively keep the important bits in memory. Most developers solve this by having separate areas, like indoor/outdoor stuff.

Anyone, enough rambling, I got carried away there. Still, it's not a bad idea, because the world really is very well crafted..

I agree that the world design in WoW is absolutely superb, but it's also extremely empty beyond the landscapes themselves. It would never work as a singleplayer RPG unless they spent an eternity filling out the landscape with unique content.

That's one of my biggest issues with MMOs, that all areas are basically empty - because it wouldn't work to actually reward players for exploration, because then they'd get too much of an advantage, too soon. That would work against the grind-design - where players must work for their rewards.

Developers must find a way to stretch the content.

Beyond that, they're also bound by not having dynamic content. Sure, they TRY to instill that feeling, but it certainly doesn't work for me. That's the advantage that singeplayer CRPGs have - that they can allow the player to actually impact the world for the remainder of the game. To make something happen that will reflect the impact for the rest of the game. Not too many CRPGs do that, because it's a challenge to design dynamic content - but it's one of the most immersive things you can have in your game, especially when it's non-linear and freeform.

 

[Hindukönig]

Ultima IX, incidentally, had fantastic dungeons.

You must have played another Ultima IX than me. I remember most of the dungeons in "Ascension" being very unimmersive puzzle-dungeons with bright red, blue and green buttons, or just strange and overly dark labyrinths with mostly boring enemies.

 

[DArtagnan]

You must have played another Ultima IX than me. I remember most of the dungeons in "Ascension" being very unimmersive puzzle-dungeons with bright red, blue and green buttons, or just strange and overly dark labyrinths with mostly boring enemies.

We probably just like different things

I happen to adore puzzles in dungeons, and I think they were done very well in Ultima IX.

For an open world game, I think it had fantastic dungeon design. Obviously not as strong as a dedicated dungeon game like Ultima Underworld or Arx Fatalis - but I think much better than Gothic or even something like Oblivion.

 

[DeepO]

Gothic 1 has some pretty good dungeons, like old mine, orc cemetary or Sleeper temple. Incidentally all are "indoor", ehm.
Anyway, it´s the later games which drop the ball in this area, Gothic 1 was fine imo.
I´m glad PB picked up dungeon element again in Risen, hopefully they´ll be more successful with the implementation in Risen 2.

 

[Krzychu]

Gothic 1 has some pretty good dungeons, like old mine, orc cemetary or Sleeper temple. Incidentally all are "indoor", ehm.
Anyway, it´s the later games which drop the ball in this area, Gothic 1 was fine imo.
I´m glad PB picked up dungeon element again in Risen, hopefully they´ll be more successful with the implementation in Risen 2.

This. Those areas were incredible, and I had no problems with them being cut off by a loading screen and some plot conditions. I don't really see the need for a seamless world "at all costs". And yes, dungeons really are something PB does well, I hope they continue to include this element in any future games.

 

[oliverh72]

Well, I just thought I'd chime in with my impressions here. As a disclaimer to start I thought I'd mention that I've been playing games since the 80s, starting with the Ultimas and moving on to more current fare, including the Gothics. Keep in mind I never finished G1/G2 although I played them for hours and hours. I did finish U2,3,4.

I played this on a 360 - not because I'm ADHD, though I find it amusing that t3h h4rdc0rz always say this when referring to anyone who plays games on a console. I have a great PC - GTX460, 3.1ghz c2quad, 4gb ram. But my 360 is cheaper, doesn't need upgrading and I have a 47" screen. So it's sorta a no-brainer.

I should mention the differences between this and previous Gothics up front. Yes, they're different. Completely. If you actually thought this was going to have much to do with Gothic, then I think it was simply you that had the wrong expectations, not the company failing to live up to them. The thing is, clearly the devs have moved onto their Risen franchise, so if you want Gothic-feel, follow them. On top of that JoWood is having serious money problems so how on earth could they afford to publish a very niche rpg? They need as big an audience as possible so they can ship as many units as possible. I always figured this was going to be an RPG that was hugely simplified and accessible. In my opinion, these are very Good Things. Yeah, Gothic was rewarding when you got past that Orc after an hour. But you know what? Dying and reloading 45 times from stupid boars/wolves/insects/orcs is not fun. At least I never found it to be. Hence why I never finished them.

Like most, I'm still hoping the difficulty improves a bit in the larger game. It was pretty easy. In addition, I'd like to see the AI improve, but I'm not holding my breath. I expect it'll be exactly like the demo, more or less.

As for the ramped gear/loot? I thought it was awesome. I'm really hoping that the loot you get reasonably early is as cool as the stuff in the demo. I hate using "rusty sword of poking+1" for 9 hours until I level up enough to get "slightly less rusty sword of poking+2". It drives me nuts. I want a game that makes me FEEL like a hero, not one that only makes me feel like a hero in the last 2 hours. That might be just me, but I loved my glowy red fire sword and plate at the end of the demo.

I differ - mostly - from others that played the demo, clearly. I really quite liked it. My pros/cons:

Pros
* Runs pretty well on the 360. No stuttering/framerate issues that hurt the general gameplay
* looks pretty good, overall. Decently immersive, especially in the dungeons
* controls were excellent - very quick and easy to get into the inventory, skills, etc
* pretty fluid combat; the bow was fun to use, as was the other weapons and magic
* if the main game is a little more open, would be fun to explore - lots of reward (at least in the demo) for exploring the nooks & crannies
* fun monsters to fight
* seems to have a good selection of loot and gear
* some voice acting is good
* lots of configs to turn off 'hand-holding' options
* your character starts to look pretty badass with some nice gear
* high run speed - this is good if the environment is large enough to warrant it
* gather items/craft items animation is super-fast
* not as punishingly hard as old Gothic games

Cons
* enemy AI is not too hot
* currently pretty easy - I didn't die once (you can't select Hard as an option on the 360)
* some voice acting is horrible
* can't 'holster' your weapon after you draw it. This is an issue as it then limits your run speed, which is a pain if you're just trying to get from city to city (for instance)
* stealing has zero consequence. (at least in the demo it does)
* a little too much hand-holding (ie: crafting notification as soon as I had enough ingredients)
* gather items/craft items animation is super-fast
* I'd like to be able to have the option to zoom out the camera as desired
* grass/shadows pop in too much, though I didn't notice it by the end of the demo


Overall, I feel this was a pretty decent demo. It's never going to be a hallmark of gaming. But if it keeps JoWood on their feet, hopefully we'll see more decent western-style RPGs on a console. Of course, there's going to be 3 next month alone, so I'm not sure we actually need MORE.

I feel pretty certain that Two Worlds 2 is going to be deeper, more fun, more open-ended, and just all-around better than this. But I've played worse. I'd give the demo a 7 or so (on the 360). My 2 cents...

 

[Sergorn]

Not to sound like one of those hardcore elitist prick... but I just couldn't recommend the 360 version to anyone if the demo is any indication.

Compared to the PC version it just like UGLY - cheap textures, blurry graphics, and it almost felt like the game was running in slow motion in comparison. I'm not FPS whore (hell I played Ultima IX and Oblivion under 20 FPS), but I honestly wonder if the 360 version ever get past that.

So it might not be quite as bad as Risen's 360 port... but still pretty bad IMO. So I really would suggest giving the PC demo a try to.

And you can actually holster your weapon on the PC (altough you can't lock adversaries unless you edit the key file of the game).

Just my cents.

-Sergorn

 

[oliverh72]

Hey Sergorn,

Good to know. I'm not overly impressed with the visuals on the 360, but I felt like they did at least make it reasonably immersive.

As for the holstering your weapons, that's nice too - I feel like they ran out of buttons or something. It's clearly a port, but I still enjoyed my playthrough.

I'm likely going to pass on Arcania altogether for TW2, which I hope will be better. I finished and enjoyed TW1 a lot - though with some huge caveats - so I'm hoping TW2 will give me my fix this coming month.

 

[Sergorn]

I'm actually curious as to how Two Worlds II will run on the 360 - because the track records of fully seamless world on the 360 so far (ie. TW1, Risen and Arcania) is pretty bad from a technical standpoint IMO.

-Sergorn

 

[oliverh72]

Yep, totally true. I'd argue that Volition and Rockstar do pseudo-rpg open worlds better than rpg developers. I'd like to see that mini-quest mentality show up in a larger, more true-RPG world. It's almost as though they get so stuck on the idea of the vast world that they forget to put anything in that's actually interesting to do, beyond repetitive combat. I guess we'll see what happens with tw2. From the videos I've seen, it certainly looks promising. I really enjoyed the item "crafting" system (and I use that term loosely here) in TW1 a lot, and it's good to see it's back in perhaps a more flexible way.

That's clearly not present in Arcania, and it seems it may be far less "open world" than many of us hope. I'll definitely be watching the reviews closely.

 

[Sergorn]

To be fair I don't think you can reasonably gauge the open world-ness of Arcania base on the demo.

It's the tutorial area, so it's meant to be linear - the real game don't actually start until you leave the demo island to get to the big main island so I don't think anyone can possibly go and say the game is one awefully linear and closed world at this point, since for all we know the main island might be just as open as the previous Gothic games or Risen.

That's a fair point about the mini quest RPGgness of games such as GTA and such, even if that's a tad too generic for my taste.

 

[JDR13]

It's the tutorial area, so it's meant to be linear - the real game don't actually start until you leave the demo island to get to the big main island so I don't think anyone can possibly go and say the game is one awefully linear and closed world at this point, since for all we know the main island might be just as open as the previous Gothic games or Risen.

It's not really about being an open vs linear world, it's more about how you can move within it. In the older Gothic games, there was rarely such a thing as an "obstacle" until you reached the edge of the map. You could jump, climb, or swim past almost anything. In the Arcania demo, there were many places that I couldn't reach, and even a small pond is now a barrier.

 

[JDR13]

I should mention the differences between this and previous Gothics up front. Yes, they're different. Completely. If you actually thought this was going to have much to do with Gothic, then I think it was simply you that had the wrong expectations, not the company failing to live up to them. The thing is, clearly the devs have moved onto their Risen franchise, so if you want Gothic-feel, follow them.

That's a valid point about "expectations", we should have known that Arcania was going to be mainstreamed compared to the earlier Gothics. Still, I wish JoWood had just went with their own IP, instead of cheapening the "Gothic" name with this watered-down title.

Afaic, the Gothic series ended with Gothic 3. Playing the demo for Arcania only made me look forward to Risen 2 even more.

 

[Dez]

@Dez
Comparing it to exploring the Old Camp huh? That's not fair, hehe. Exploring the Old Camp (and later on the Swamp Camp) is among the greatest gaming experiences I've ever had - it was incredible. Stunning! Everything felt so real, so alive. I very much doubt I'll ever experience anything similar, as it was something of a revelation for me: It was the first time I realized the possibilities of creating a living, breathing 3D world. Before Gothic, 2D games were just as good as 3D games at presenting a living world.

I admit that the standard is quite high….

Still the old camp is exactly the standard we should be comparing this game. To be frank I didn't realisticly think that sb could ever reach same level as pb did, but even gothic 3 gameworld feels so much more dynamic than anything we've seen in Arcania so far and gothic 3 is considered the weakest part of the trilogy. I'm willing to change my oppinion if the actual reviews of full game here @ watch are positive, but untill then, arcania has fallen out of my purchase list.

The oddest thing is how these people are claiming that they know what gothic series is all about., yet they make all these horrible design decisions. With long teeth I could swallow the streamlined combat and other consolized gameplay elements, but I have to draw the line somewhere. If this demo is supposed to show us the best sides of Arcania, it has failed misserably. I don't comment the balance issues (game being stupidly easy for one), glitches and graphic bugs as those can be patched. I'm talking about the more crucial elements.

Exploring feels quite limited. The big thing in gothic series as you know has always been how open-ended the gameworld feels. The lack of artificial borders is something very few rpgs manage to do right. You are free to explore as long as your character can handle the monsters and other challenges the game throws at you. It looks like SB has ruined this aspect entirely.

The second important thing for me in gothics is how npcs behave so realisticly. They all have their own motives and agendas. you really feel like they are real persons. Npcs are also following their daily routines. In gothic 2 for example Fire novices sweep the halls of monestaries, practise staff combat, pray, sleep, produce wine, read books and so forth. Arcania lacks all this. Furthermore just like npc personalities, arcania quest writing seems quite shallow compared to g1 and g2.

 

[bemushroomed]

The AI is truly a joke in this game:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d6KvSRWs_w4

 

[DArtagnan]

The AI is truly a joke in this game:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d6KvSRWs_w4

I've been thinking….

Maybe the entirety of Arcania is just one big subtle advertisement for the Gothic franchise

Haha, nah, I'll still give it a shot upon release. But it doesn't bode well in terms of AI and challenge.

I don't really care too much about balance, but if the game starts out as a complete pushover - it won't work for me at all.

 

[JDR13]

The AI is truly a joke in this game:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d6KvSRWs_w4

I laughed at one of the comments left by a YouTube member….

"Fucking joke of a game."

"How did we go from Gothic 2 to this?"

Exactly.