DA2 Dragon Age 2 = God of War

[Dwagginz]

The only thing that gives me a glimmer of hope is the fact that it's obviously the Xbox version being shown. Still, I certainly don't have high expectations for this game.

I think Mike Laidlaw said the PC version will look the same (In terms of combat), but I could have misread what he said. The BioWare guys aren't brilliant at giving information

 

[JemyM]

This basically looks like your traditional 3rd person 3d Beat Em Up slasher. God of War being the most famous, but there are tons of games of the type. Golden Axe Beast Warrior came to mind.

What strikes me though is that it doesn't even seem well done. That doesn't make me surprised, considering Mass Effect was an inferior copy of Gears of War and Jade Empire was horrible as a Beat Em Up. Bioware have just never been good at building actiongames, they try to copy what someone else have done but that is it.

God of War is a very fast paced game with really good controls. From the very first scene you begin to mash down foes at an insane speed and the ability to strike in 360 degrees and you jump and slash, and jump and jump and do hard slash etc… it's continously fluid in it's movement and control. That is usually what separates a good actiongame from a poor one, how direct your control is and what stunning movements you can pull off when you are getting skilled at it.

Watching this short sequence looks like the movements are clunky and slow. Tactics seem to be completely removed, replaced with four quickslots, which kinda explains the talk about "upgrading fireball". DA:O had four firespells and as a level 25 mage you had more than 20-30 different spells. To produce this kind of actiongame you need to severely reduce the number of options/attacks a player can pull off in real time.

 

[Dwagginz]

What strikes me though is that it doesn't even seem well done. That doesn't make me surprised, considering Mass Effect was an inferior copy of Gears of War

Wait, what? Gears of War was a third person shooter through and through. No RPG elements, nothing. If you'd have said The Scourge Project, I'd agree, but Mass Effect 2? No. Yes, it's a cover based TPS. Yes, it's UE3. Yes, it's slightly "chunky", but beyond that? No, I have to disagree.

and Jade Empire was horrible as a Beat Em Up.

But at least Jade Empire worked even with bad combat. You could just spam the attack button and get through the game, occasionally swapping between 2-3 styles.

I do agree that DA:O's skills needed to be trimmed down, especially for mages.

 

[DeepO]

I do agree that DA:O's skills needed to be trimmed down, especially for mages.

Agree with whom?

DA:O´s skills most certainly didn´t need to be trimmed down. They needed to be refined and diversified, not replaced with 4 levels of fireball.

 

[Dwagginz]

Agree with whom?

Myself But Jemy's post, to me, came across as a "they need to be trimmed down" comment.

DA:O´s skills most certainly didn´t need to be trimmed down. They needed to be refined and diversified, not replaced with 4 levels of fireball.

I disagree. I think you ended up with a lot of abilities and sustainables that really weren't that varied.

 

[Maylander]

I feel the other classes needed more variety, as the Mage is "Jack of all trades, master of.. all trades!".

 

[JDR13]

Wait, what? Gears of War was a third person shooter through and through. No RPG elements, nothing. If you'd have said The Scourge Project, I'd agree, but Mass Effect 2? No. Yes, it's a cover based TPS. Yes, it's UE3. Yes, it's slightly "chunky", but beyond that? No, I have to disagree.

I thought the exact same thing when I read his post. I think maybe he's just referring to the shoot&cover aspect, not the game as a whole.

 

[Dwagginz]

I thought the exact same thing when I read his post. I think maybe he's just referring to the shoot&cover aspect, not the game as a whole.

Hmm... But even then it's not totally correct as Gears of War didn't invent cover shooting, it's really just the game that popularised it.

 

[DeepO]

I disagree. I think you ended up with a lot of abilities and sustainables that really weren't that varied.

Disagree with whom?

Not with me, that´s for sure, as I´ve written: "DA:O´s skills most certainly didn´t need to be trimmed down. They needed to be refined and diversified, not replaced with 4 levels of fireball. "

Read posts a bit more carefully!

 

[Dwagginz]

Disagree with whom?

Not with me, that´s for sure, as I´ve written: "DA:O´s skills most certainly didn´t need to be trimmed down. They needed to be refined and diversified, not replaced with 4 levels of fireball. "

Read posts a bit more carefully!

I disagreed with you, and I've bolded what (in particular) I disagreed with.

 

[DeepO]

Ok, thanks.
But no thanks, you really shouldn´t disagree with me .

Back to the video then. It´s still awful.

 

[JemyM]

Wait, what? Gears of War was a third person shooter through and through. No RPG elements, nothing. If you'd have said The Scourge Project, I'd agree, but Mass Effect 2? No. Yes, it's a cover based TPS. Yes, it's UE3. Yes, it's slightly "chunky", but beyond that? No, I have to disagree.

Have you considered just how much of the RPG elements that was cut from ME2 over ME1, and how much of the RPG elements that was cut from ME1 over KOTOR?

Bioware have taken the leap that many designers have taken, they are trying to meet the markets expectations which means copying what's popular. The Cover mechanics was popularized by Gears of War, hence my comparison to that game. They aren't moving in the direction in which they are trying to "renew rpg-mechanics", they are moving away from it more and more in every new game.

ME still offers the emotional storytelling from Biowares previous games, which have always been one of their key strengths, but when it comes to gameplay they have gone straight downhill. As a 3rd Person shooter, ME just isn't a very good game.

But at least Jade Empire worked even with bad combat. You could just spam the attack button and get through the game, occasionally swapping between 2-3 styles.

This is probably what you should expect from DA2.

I do agree that DA:O's skills needed to be trimmed down, especially for mages.

Agree with whom? The key reason I enjoyed DA:O was the depth offered a Mage character. I deeply enjoyed the tactical gameplay and the arsenal of options I had in my toolbox, so much that I wanted to make some youtube videos about it. The last thing I wanted was a reduction in the number of options I had, because it is when you have more tools than you ever need you can get creative, and it's in that creativity me as a player feel I play the game rather than being forced into the backseat to watch the ride.

 

[Dwagginz]

Have you considered just how much of the RPG elements that was cut from ME2 over ME1, and how much of the RPG elements that was cut from ME1 over KOTOR?

Well, KotOR was based on an existing system, whereas ME1 wasn't. KotOR was an RPG, ME is a TPS/RPG hybrid. ME2 was, in every way, an improvement over ME1. Graphically, gameplay, the RPG elements - It worked so much better as a game. Yes, I do think the ammo system is a little silly, but otherwise? ME2 is miles better. I don't just have one piece of armour now (With 3 upgrade slots), but I've got five pieces with a lot of variety. Am I dying a lot? Replace a piece with +Shields or +Health. Am I using all my heavy ammo? Replace a piece with one which allows more ammo slots.

Bioware have taken the leap that many designers have taken, they are trying to meet the markets expectations which means copying what's popular. The Cover mechanics was popularized by Gears of War, hence my comparison to that game. They aren't moving in the direction in which they are trying to "renew rpg-mechanics", they are moving away from it more and more in every new game.

And I have that fault with them, too, but not with Mass Effect. It's a new IP. It's not a spiritual successor to KotOR (And it's never claimed to be), it's a very actiony RPG. Sure, the RPG elements aren't in depth, but it doesn't mean it's a bad thing they've done. Mass Effect, especially 2, works fine as it is.

Dragon Age: Origins has been both good and bad for BioWare. It's shown many faults in their ability to create AAA quality games and with how they communicate with fans (Awakening and Return to Ostagar respectively for prime examples). And they must have got a lot of feedback on what DA2 should be - But they can't have used it. In January 2010 (Which is ~2 months after release) they were talking about how they were improving their graphics engine.

What they've done, in my opinion, is take the criticisms about Origins and effectively remove them from the game, or go the completely wrong way about fixing them. Someone said the graphics are too dull and monotonous? Let's make a cartoony game!

 

[DPB]

God of War is a very fast paced game with really good controls. From the very first scene you begin to mash down foes at an insane speed and the ability to strike in 360 degrees and you jump and slash, and jump and jump and do hard slash etc… it's continously fluid in it's movement and control. That is usually what separates a good actiongame from a poor one, how direct your control is and what stunning movements you can pull off when you are getting skilled at it.

You can't do those things in DA2, it's like the first game. You have a normal attack (which still continues automatically on the PC) and spells and abilties, there are no combos like pressing specific buttons in sequence. The combat is fundamentally the same as DAO, only that the animations are faster and it looks flashier.

Tactics seem to be completely removed, replaced with four quickslots, which kinda explains the talk about "upgrading fireball". DA:O had four firespells and as a level 25 mage you had more than 20-30 different spells. To produce this kind of actiongame you need to severely reduce the number of options/attacks a player can pull off in real time.

I'm not sure how you've reached this conclusion - it's a a video of the console version, hence the four quickslots, like the picture below but with one more. The PC version will still have a row of quickslots at the bottom of the screen.

 

[JemyM]

Well, KotOR was based on an existing system, whereas ME1 wasn't. KotOR was an RPG, ME is a TPS/RPG hybrid. ME2 was, in every way, an improvement over ME1. Graphically, gameplay, the RPG elements - It worked so much better as a game. Yes, I do think the ammo system is a little silly, but otherwise? ME2 is miles better. I don't just have one piece of armour now (With 3 upgrade slots), but I've got five pieces with a lot of variety. Am I dying a lot? Replace a piece with +Shields or +Health. Am I using all my heavy ammo? Replace a piece with one which allows more ammo slots.

Played the game through on Insanity with Sentinel. Did I need to bother about armor? No. Did I need to bother about equipment? No. You upgrade by buying stuff in stores, which is a no brainer (buy stuff for your main class main weapon), or research which means mining, an element they are probably going to cut from ME3 since it was widely loathed.

One of the strongest improvements of ME2 over ME1 was that they removed the inventory system. It is almost like this was intentional because the inventory system in ME1 was horrible compared to KOTOR, NWN or Dragon Age. Do I want a real inventory system in ME3? Hell yeah, but I rather take one over ME1.

Did you ever really feel ME2 to be that strong in making you reflect on what to use as equipment? Did you ever feel the need to plan your character? What to do?

How many times is the excuse "well, it wasn't an RPG" god enough? Jade Empire? Well, it wasn't an RPG... Mass Effect 1... weeeeell it was a RPG hybrid... Mass Effect 2... weeeeell, it isn't a RPG anyway... Dragon Age 2... Weeeell... thinking about it, aren't RPG's kinda outdated anyway right? who want's Bioware to make RPG's as they used to, no one want's that stuff anymore...

It is interesting... I could tell you about the choices I made for my DA:O character and it would take awhile to tell you my plans for my character, my reasoning behind the items I used, the spells I took, the order I used them, how I used them, what companions I used, how I leveled those. I could tell you about the choices I did, the paths I took, the dialogue options I used, and it would take awhile.

I can sum up my ME2 in three words, paragon, sentinel, female.

That is what streamlining/accessibility is. You do not play the game, the game plays you.

And I have that fault with them, too, but not with Mass Effect. It's a new IP. It's not a spiritual successor to KotOR (And it's never claimed to be), it's a very actiony RPG. Sure, the RPG elements aren't in depth, but it doesn't mean it's a bad thing they've done. Mass Effect, especially 2, works fine as it is.

Dragon Age: Origins has been both good and bad for BioWare. It's shown many faults in their ability to create AAA quality games and with how they communicate with fans (Awakening and Return to Ostagar respectively for prime examples). And they must have got a lot of feedback on what DA2 should be - But they can't have used it. In January 2010 (Which is ~2 months after release) they were talking about how they were improving their graphics engine.

What they've done, in my opinion, is take the criticisms about Origins and effectively remove them from the game, or go the completely wrong way about fixing them. Someone said the graphics are too dull and monotonous? Let's make a cartoony game!

Agreed.

 

[Alrik Fassbauer]

I think Mike Laidlaw said the PC version will look the same (In terms of combat), but I could have misread what he said. The BioWare guys aren't brilliant at giving information

I repeat myself : The part shown is what was playable at the Games Com.

There were xbox terminals (I think), and PC terminals, but of course I used the PC terminal, since I don't kno how to use a console.

 

[JemyM]

There were xbox terminals (I think), and PC terminals, but of course I used the PC terminal, since I don't kno how to use a console.

I held off consoles a loooong time, but in a gaming project of trying some of the key console franchises (Metal Gear Solid, Resident Evil and Final Fantasy) I got my first bunch. MGS actually got me into grabbing a PS2 for MGS3, PS3 for MGS4 and PSP for MGS: Portable Ops. Still 95% of the games I play are on PC... as very few games manages to capture my interests that aren't produced in a PC version.

 

[Lurking Grue]

Needs more blood imo.

Indeedy. And bigger swords. Now, if they implement collar-grabbing in conversations, we're set for a super-duper RPG extravaganza. An RPG feast, I tell you. Something that'll reinvent, revolutionize and revitalize the entire genre no less.



That video confirmed my worst fears about DA2. It looked absolutely appalling (and I'm not talking about the graphics).

 

[Alrik Fassbauer]

@JemyM : There are only very few games that would make me buy a console. But on the other hand, I have the impression as if there were far more innovative concepts and themes on the console than on the PC.

Right now, "Epic Mickey" is a game I tend to want to play.

 

[fatBastard()]

Oh damn, am I too late?

Let me just fetch my stick ... here we go. *SMACK* take that you stupid dead horsey you. *SMACK* ... bugger, you guys have already turned all the good parts into small bloody pulps

Okay, next time there is a gameplay video from a Bioware product released for marketing purposes which basically tells us NOTHING whatsoever about the game itself, I promise I'll be the first one here with the torch and the pitchfork screaming for blood.

*sigh* We really need a "Let's rant and rave about Dragon Age 2" thread because this "oh noes, this is the worstest game EVAR!!!!111" attitude towards anything Bioware made is really getting tiresome.

Why not wait until we actually KNOW what the game is going to be like before starting to bitch and moan about it? If it turns out to be as bad as some of you seem to think, then by all means, knock yourself out, but a lot of you started lighting torches and fetched the rope when the Marilyn Manson trailer for DA:O came out and that wasn't really representative of the final game, now was it?