Dragon Age 2 - Retrospective @Hihu

[Maylander]

As I said at the time: DA2 would have been considered a better game had it been called DA: The tale of Hawke or something similar. It was never a game for the fans of DA: O. Beyond the enemy waves and re-use of dungeons/interiors, there's actually a pretty decent game in there.

The concept, where you get to see a city/characters evolve over years instead of weeks, is a rather interesting one. Also, the party feels much more like a group of actual friends than in most games - they'll consistently hang out even without the main character, and frequently mention this. Also, I really like some of characters, such as Varric, Isabella and the Arishok (an interesting "villain").

That being said, the short development cycle (about 1-1,5 years I believe was mentioned in an interview recently?) always meant DA2 would be lacking. There's no way to make a good RPG in that amount of time. They're just too complex by nature.

At any rate, I still replay it when I do Dragon Age re-runs, which happens from time to time. Certain parts of the story, especially from the DLCs, are pretty much required in order to understand DA: I and get a coherent, overall story.

 

[lackblogger]

I guess the summation, or TLDR, of DA2's (and modern Bioware generally) is that they want to make action RPGs, but action RPGs filled with endless conversation cut-scenes, which is just too jarring a combination for a lot of RPG fans. Trying to please everyone but alienating most and ending up with a core fanbase that has no interest in the game and its features beyond the romance and associated fan-fiction aspects, most of whom would prefer it if you could even skip the combat and just run between conversations.

Its really quite bizzare and its no wonder they're losing ground to games like Witcher, Dark Souls, Final Fantasy and Elder Scrolls.

Edit: I see I cross-posted with Maylander, and, surprise surprise, whenever people talk about the good points its related to the story and companions, never any mention of any game features (though some rare people do claim to like the combat as their only other addition to the conversation).

So, Maylander, when you say there's a pretty decent game in there, do you mean someone should make a fan-edit of the game where everything is removed apart from the conversations, running and (possibly) combat (though that should probably be removed as well)?

 

[Maylander]

Edit: I see I cross-posted with Maylander, and, surprise surprise, whenever people talk about the good points its related to the story and companions, never any mention of any game features (though some rare people do claim to like the combat as their only other addition to the conversation).

So, Maylander, when you say there's a pretty decent game in there, do you mean someone should make a fan-edit of the game where everything is removed apart from the conversations, running and (possibly) combat (though that should probably be removed as well)?

In theory, yes, but I'm not sure how well it would work out. It might be too jarring. It might actually have been a decent animation mini-series, with one episode per chapter.

 

[fungus]

The concept, where you get to see a city/characters evolve over years instead of weeks, is a rather interesting one. Also, the party feels much more like a group of actual friends than in most games - they'll consistently hang out even without the main character, and frequently mention this. Also, I really like some of characters, such as Varric, Isabella and the Arishok (an interesting "villain").

That being said, the short development cycle (about 1-1,5 years I believe was mentioned in an interview recently?) always meant DA2 would be lacking. There's no way to make a good RPG in that amount of time. They're just too complex by nature.

That's how I feel about DA2. It had good ideas and good moments, but was painfully unfinished and needed a lot of work. And then bad ideas brought it even lower down for me (enemy waves for example, hate those).

At any rate, I still replay it when I do Dragon Age re-runs, which happens from time to time. Certain parts of the story, especially from the DLCs, are pretty much required in order to understand DA: I and get a coherent, overall story.

Don't think DA2 DLCs add that much to DAI story. A bit of background, but not that much... DAI DLCs on the other hand have some absolutely massive reveals, which is much worse.

 

[Maylander]

Don't think DA2 DLCs add that much to DAI story. A bit of background, but not that much… DAI DLCs on the other hand have some absolutely massive reveals, which is much worse.

Spoiler: Well..

The whole Corypheus thing is fairly important. The entire build-up is in a DLC. It's certainly possible to simply play the game without knowing his background, but I imagine it makes more sense if you already know of him.

 

[fungus]

Yeah, I know - but it only made me expect more from that guy than he actually does in DAI. He should know so much. In the end you barely interact with him, and where you do he does standard villain posturing.

Spoiler

And it's sort of ridiculous Hawke let him go in the first place. I really don't like when characters get hit by idiot bat just because they need to do something dumb or not notice something obvious for the story to go on.

 

[Ivanwah]

I was really excited about DA when they first announced Origins but to my surprise it turned out to be a JRPG masked as a western RPG. And I tried to replay it with mods recently hoping I would get something more out of it but that wasn't the case . I don't like the direction Bioware went since then. They were my favorite studio until DAO, but they went downhill as far as I'm concerned.

 

[JDR13]

I was really excited about DA when they first announced Origins but to my surprise it turned out to be a JRPG masked as a western RPG. And I tried to replay it with mods recently hoping I would get something more out of it but that wasn't the case . I don't like the direction Bioware went since then. They were my favorite studio until DAO, but they went downhill as far as I'm concerned.

Huh? What was JRPG-like about DA:O?

 

[Ivanwah]

Huh? What was JRPG-like about DA:O?

I only played like a quarter of the game before it became insufferable, I admit that. But what little I played reminded me of old JRPGs I tried to play on SNES (I don't remember the names, but I think Chrono Trigger was one of them) with its almost constant and lengthy cutscenes/dialogue. OK, your choices probably matter more the more you get into the game, but It could have been done in a better way. That is more of a stylistic direction, but it doesn't change the fact that it felt like watching a badly animated movie.
Also, I really thought the game will open up after the prolog, but it only gave me options to go to certain locations and do quests there. I went to Tower of Magi and it was really linear and I seemed to be following a single path.
Next, the economy was non-existent, and the only reason you sold items was to make room in the inventory. You didn't even have a place to store items for later and you pick up a lot of crafting junk. That's fine, but since I wanted to use them later once I found out what works the best, I really needed the storage (there is a mod for that, but that's beside the point).
What else... oh yeah, darkspawn in the wilds literally spawn from out of nowhere a la 90s JRPG random encounters. Sorry for yelling but I HATE THAT SHIT. Yes, you can stealth past them (if you're a rogue), but the whole party can't go around them. And , to my knowledge, there was no way of detecting them.

Those are the reasons it gave me a strong JRPG vibe I wasn't able to shake off. The combat was enjoyable, though, but it was frustrating being interrupted every five seconds or so by a party member proclaiming he's scared in a cutscene/dialogue.

 

[CelticFrost]

Is DA2 the complete demise of Bioware, they they reclaim some fan's with DA:O.

I know I will never play another game from them.

My biggest complaint is they copied and pasted so much in this game. It is just so lazy. I could forgive almost anything but that.

 

[BoboTheMighty]

I only played like a quarter of the game before it became insufferable, I admit that. But what little I played reminded me of old JRPGs I tried to play on SNES (I don't remember the names, but I think Chrono Trigger was one of them) with its almost constant and lengthy cutscenes/dialogue. OK, your choices probably matter more the more you get into the game, but It could have been done in a better way. That is more of a stylistic direction, but it doesn't change the fact that it felt like watching a badly animated movie.
Also, I really thought the game will open up after the prolog, but it only gave me options to go to certain locations and do quests there. I went to Tower of Magi and it was really linear and I seemed to be following a single path.
Next, the economy was non-existent, and the only reason you sold items was to make room in the inventory. You didn't even have a place to store items for later and you pick up a lot of crafting junk. That's fine, but since I wanted to use them later once I found out what works the best, I really needed the storage (there is a mod for that, but that's beside the point).
What else… oh yeah, darkspawn in the wilds literally spawn from out of nowhere a la 90s JRPG random encounters. Sorry for yelling but I HATE THAT SHIT. Yes, you can stealth past them (if you're a rogue), but the whole party can't go around them. And , to my knowledge, there was no way of detecting them.

Those are the reasons it gave me a strong JRPG vibe I wasn't able to shake off. The combat was enjoyable, though, but it was frustrating being interrupted every five seconds or so by a party member proclaiming he's scared in a cutscene/dialogue.

Eh? Been a while, but that seems very different from DAO, as I remember. Biggest problem is typical with BW games...great prologue, first act-->splits game in three boring directions->picks up at the ending.
Intro+Ostagar are best by far, as a whole.

 

[JDR13]

Yeah.. I have to question how much of the game he actually played. You can't compare DA:O to Chrono Trigger and expect me to take you seriously.

 

[Ivanwah]

Ok, calling it a JRPG was a stretch, and like I said, I only played a little past prolog. And I don't remember what JRPGs I tried to play, except for Chrono Trigger. It was almost 20 years ago and I didn't really enjoy it. But I do remember what I didn't enjoy about them: lengthy cutscenes/dialogue, random enemy encounters, linearity masked behind a seemingly big open world. DAO really reminded me of that and, while it might be different later in the game, I wasn't going to waste any more time with it. Mind you, I spent like fifteen hours with it prior to quitting, exploring every corner, reading every codex entry, etc. In the end I decided to play something else both times I tried it.

 

[Maylander]

Yeah, I know - but it only made me expect more from that guy than he actually does in DAI. He should know so much. In the end you barely interact with him, and where you do he does standard villain posturing.

Spoiler

And it's sort of ridiculous Hawke let him go in the first place. I really don't like when characters get hit by idiot bat just because they need to do something dumb or not notice something obvious for the story to go on.

Yes, that scene annoyed me as well. It is something of a pet peeve of mine, and I hate it with a passion. It was especially bad in ME3:

Spoiler

Any scene involving Kai Leng turned Shepard into a complete dimwit.

 

[Deleted User]

Ok, calling it a JRPG was a stretch, and like I said, I only played a little past prolog. And I don't remember what JRPGs I tried to play, except for Chrono Trigger. It was almost 20 years ago and I didn't really enjoy it. But I do remember what I didn't enjoy about them: lengthy cutscenes/dialogue, random enemy encounters, linearity masked behind a seemingly big open world. DAO really reminded me of that and, while it might be different later in the game, I wasn't going to waste any more time with it. Mind you, I spent like fifteen hours with it prior to quitting, exploring every corner, reading every codex entry, etc. In the end I decided to play something else both times I tried it.

Hmm. Chrono Trigger did have cutscenes, but I wouldn't consider them too lengthy. If you want lengthy cutscenes, try the Mako energy area when Cloud "awakens" in Final Fantasy 7. That's a lengthy cutscene.

Chrono Trigger didn't really have random encounters. The enemies could be seen on the map and sometimes avoided. CT also opens up a bit later when you can freely travel between different areas and do the optional content. Not exactly open-world but it had some exploration and options later.

I think people should play Chrono Trigger because of the story and the setting. The time-travel element is really brilliant in the game and the atmosphere is just gripping. The characters are cool, too. It's one of those games where the stars were aligned when it was created.

 

[TomRon]

I actually agree with Ivanwah on DA:O being such a dissapointment that I stopped buying their titles after that, so I never even considered trying DA2. Funnky though, I thought the story was quite decent, at least the beginning and the end like many claim. But I found the combat boring and MMO'ish if that makes sense, and the character building and entire mechanics system utterly devoid of any really fun choices.

I like the fact that in D'n'D games your different classes have different roles that they perform, and no class can do everything. In DA, you get wizards running around in full armour and it just feels…wrong. I did finish the game though, so I didn't find it horrible, just horribly lacking as compared to the Baldurs Gate it was supposed to be the spiritual successor of in Biowares marketing.

 

[azarhal]

I like the fact that in D'n'D games your different classes have different roles that they perform, and no class can do everything. In DA, you get wizards running around in full armour and it just feels…wrong.

Why would you do that? You would have to raise your strength over you magic and willpower so much to wear heavy armor that your mage would be useless.

Oh and you can't wear heavy armors on mages in DA2 or DAI.

 

[JDR13]

I did fininsh the game though, so I didn't find it horrible, just horribly lacking as compared to the Baldurs Gate it was supposed to be the spiritual successor of in Biowares marketing.

I agree that it was disappointing compared to Baldur's Gate, but most RPGs are. Smaller party, less exploration, not as hardcore, less enemy variety, etc.

I still liked it though. Mainly due to how dark and gritty it was. Cliché yes, but I thought they pulled it off well in that game.

 

[TomRon]

I can appreciate that. Dark and gritty has never been my thing though.

I think what made me like DA:O less than I thought I would might have been that I played on hard (no friendly fire on normal is a no-no). Might have been more fun on normal since I didn't actually enjoy the combat.

 

[JDR13]

The PC version actually does have friendly fire on Normal difficulty. It's just set at 50% of the damage you take on Hard mode. It's been so long since I played that I don't even remember what difficulty I played on.