Tyranny - Is being evil in RPGs fun?

RPGs help you step outside reality for a little bit.
I like happy endings (even if people die lol).
Living in an evil world, is kinda dark, and I need no more darkness in my life.

Do you remember loom? It had such a nice story to it. You played it, and while there were points of sadness in it, it was bittersweet! It felt nice to play.

An evil path, is usually just a very selfish power grabbing path, with no respect for anyone else (their life or what they own, value or do).
Give me a change from some of the downsides of reality... let me be a selfless hero for once!
But that is just my 2 cents lol
 
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I still don't get why Tyranny didn't sell well.

It's not astrophysics mate. People learned their lesson after PoE. Both were lackluster, and expensive. Especially Tranny. It's like a smaller, autistic cousin of PoE.
 
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It's not astrophysics mate. People learned their lesson after PoE. Both were lackluster, and expensive. Especially Tranny. It's like a smaller, autistic cousin of PoE.

No, that's not why. Both games received generally decent ratings from both critics and players. $45 is fairly normal pricing for a professional game of their type and scope.
 
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Wenston Phipps! That guy is scum!! What really gets you is that he's just some depraved person, not super in any way. If you try to beat him up with your hero, he would be dead and you would be a murderer that's even worse than him! AAARRGGH!!! Could somebody please toss a radioactive insect at him?
An evil path, is usually just a very selfish power grabbing path, with no respect for anyone else (their life or what they own, value or do).
No respect for ANYONE else just isn't going to work in an RPG. With a reputation like that, absolutely nobody can trust you at all, ever. Nor could you trust anyone else. You would be stuck wandering around in the woods, looking for marks. Even if you amass some treasure, you won't be able to spend it on anything. The moment you got near a shop, the guards would be called! You would be like Smaug, sitting on a big pile of gold that you can't do anything with.

A better evil would be one that's very dedicated to some group, to the great detriment of others outside the group. Not only is that a lot more believable but you also can still be part of a team of some kind.
 
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I don't like talking about being evil or good when it comes to behaviour in RPGs. They're just labels and hard to grasp.

I'd like to talk more about being selfish or altruistic. Help yourself or help others. I'd like to have games where it's really difficult to make decisions like that and where being altruistic gives you disadvantages wher being selfish would give you an advantage.
It's minor things like refusing some gold as a reward for a quest. That's not a difficult decision if you have enough money anyways. Refuse receiving a unique item that would give your mage a significant spell bonus? That's a lot harder.
Rescuing an NPC but paying with losing a finger which means a permanent malus on dexterity? Tough. Killing an NPC without witnesses for looting that shiny unique armor?
Rescuiing an NPC but sacrificing one of your beloved companions?

I like to play selfless heroes as well, but it would be a lot harder - and thus more satisfing - if I had to make choices like these.

It would be nice if from time to time selfish choice gives you short-term advantages but long-term disadvantages and vice versa. This souldn't be the general case though.
 
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errrr… sounds a lot like TW3 Morrandir :)
 
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Does it? I felt it was very easy to let Geralt be the good guy. Are there actual disadvantages when acting altruistic?
 
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Altruism and selfishness go hand in hand. If you're altruistic, you're going to ignore a lot of people - because you're so focused on helping everyone you see that you can't possibly help them all sufficiently. Also, if you don't focus on yourself - you're going to be of limited help in the end.

Nah, people aren't really "all" altruistic or "all" selfish. Better to dispense with these concepts and just have plausible scenarios with a set of plausible reactions. Don't lock yourself down in black and white systems. Human beings aren't like that.
 
Nah, people aren't really "all" altruistic or "all" selfish. Better to dispense with these concepts and just have plausible scenarios with a set of plausible reactions. Don't lock yourself down in black and white systems. Human beings aren't like that.

The Coles of Quest for Glory look at things like that as well. They don't design puzzles but problems to be resolved in a human context which means finding out about people if you want to solve a problem properly. Of course they make heroic tales but the theory is a good one.
 
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The Coles of Quest for Glory look at things like that as well. They don't design puzzles but problems to be resolved in a human context which means finding out about people if you want to solve a problem properly. Of course they make heroic tales but the theory is a good one.

Sounds interesting :)

Yeah, I think the key to the best quest writing is to understand that everything is subject to perception. If you write a quest where characters do what human beings might well do - that will suffice. You don't need to force "evil", "selfish" or anything like that upon it. Don't even look at the motivation beyond being a pattern of behavior.

If you then create a variety of plausible consequences - without caring if any given resolution is "dramatically satisfying" - then you will actually end up with the most satisfying resolution of all, because you will believe in it.
 
Nah, people aren't really "all" altruistic or "all" selfish.
Of course they aren't. I didn't say they were.
But I think a certain act can be altrusitic or selfish - of course not on a binary but on a continous scale.

Better to dispense with these concepts and just have plausible scenarios with a set of plausible reactions. Don't lock yourself down in black and white systems. Human beings aren't like that.
I don't see a contradiction here. It's just that I wouldn't rate the reactions on a good/evil scale but on a altruistic/selfish scale. Of course there are more possible dimensions. I just think that this one leads to actual difficult choices.
 
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Of course they aren't. I didn't say they were.
But I think a certain act can be altrusitic or selfish - of course not on a binary but on a continous scale.

I didn't say you said so :)

I don't see a contradiction here. It's just that I wouldn't rate the reactions on a good/evil scale but on a altruistic/selfish scale. Of course there are more possible dimensions. I just think that this one leads to actual difficult choices.

My argument is to dispense with these scales entirely - because they will lead to design concessions in order to fit systems that don't actually relate to real human behavior :)

As such, you end up with some very constructed scenarios - and you will feel forced into creating some kind of symmetry as a quest designer.

Well, that would be my opinion.
 
I agree with the article. The concept turned people off, despite being quite interesting, and nowhere near as bad or grim as they initially proclaimed. The marketing failed completely in that regard by portraying it as if you'd essentially play the bad guy.

Personally, I played somewhat good both times I played it. It's not possible to be "Lawful Good", as the main character is essentially a high ranking individual a dictatorship. It becomes obvious fairly early on that the dictator in question is extremely powerful, so the main character will have to resolve certain situations whether he/she likes it or not. However, how those situations are resolves is up to the player, and that's where being lenient is often an option.
 
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As such, you end up with some very constructed scenarios - and you will feel forced into creating some kind of symmetry as a quest designer.
Yep, you have a point here.
 
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Yep, you have a point here.

Of course, it's much more challenging to develop quests without some kind of structure in place for the types of responses the player is likely to prefer.

Not sure if it's feasible in a very big and open RPG - but I would certainly prefer a more nuanced and flexible structure.
 
Does it? I felt it was very easy to let Geralt be the good guy. Are there actual disadvantages when acting altruistic?

errrrr… yes and no. I'm kinda of surprised that you've found it easy to let Geralt be a good guy. All that I've managed was not to make him a bad guy.
IMO in TW3 any action very often have unforeseen consequences and purely altruistic acts are few and far between (if any at all).
There are characters will lie or mislead Geralt into helping them. Is helping a bad guy who pretends to be a good guy an altruistic act? Or the guy who thinks that he have done something justified but didn't?

And, of course, this isn't a criticism. That's the dark beauty of the Witcher's world.
 
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I agree with the article. The concept turned people off, despite being quite interesting, and nowhere near as bad or grim as they initially proclaimed. The marketing failed completely in that regard by portraying it as if you'd essentially play the bad guy.

I disagree because Blackguards marketing was quite similar and heavily focused on evil aspect. And despite I enjoyed play it, its high amount of sells is hard to explain.

So I would tend agree, I don't think so many players want play evil, but no way I'm sure it's right when I see the number of sells of Blackguards.

Nobody knows why Tyranny failed that much, in my opinion:
- The first major aspect is many players that was more in core of players targeted associated it to PoE, like a minor PoE, and even a small PoE, this decreasing the interest.
- The second aspect is PoE disappointment. I read too many comments quoting multiple aspects of PoE wasn't that good from combats to writing. And no PoE2 KS didn't get that successful with a number of pledges about half of PoE1 this saying the disappointment level or at least the lost of interest. This number of players should be quite significant. And all those players was potentially in the target, but they just gave up on Tyranny they saw as a small PoE.
- The third aspect is the superficiality of many comments at release and during first weeks, first players, youtubers, reviewers and even the stupid codex group. All unable to quote the multiple plays aspect, and that reduce play duration to one play was a total stupidity. All unable to quote this time combats was really very playable with auto pause of skills finished unlike in PoE. This third aspect generated a negative feedback that achieved dig the game.

The fourth aspect is RPG communities increasing toxicity level is paying more and more, and Tyranny is one that paid the price.

The fifth aspect is WRPG collaspe is coming, and Tyranny will be one of the first clues of this coming.

Fine, at least a cult RPG that won't know any superficial idiot pretending he is RPG connoisseur.
 
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Since real human beings aren't evil
How did I miss this line?

Damn, can't find the rotfl smiley. All I know I don't need any more comedy today.
 
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I don't like talking about being evil or good when it comes to behaviour in RPGs. They're just labels and hard to grasp.

I'd like to talk more about being selfish or altruistic. Help yourself or help others.
That looks close to a psy point of view of good and evil, the impulses to satisfy your desire, by opposition of control to satisfy the community.

But that also pinpoints the ridiculous approach that had D&D, doing evil for the benefit of doing evil makes no sense.

No, even if sometimes it can looks like that, it's much more because there's a benefit. A troll trolling a forum rarely do it for being evil, but for the fun or satisfaction he can take from it.

I'd like to have games where it's really difficult to make decisions like that and where being altruistic gives you disadvantages wher being selfish would give you an advantage.
It's minor things like refusing some gold as a reward for a quest. That's not a difficult decision if you have enough money anyways. Refuse receiving a unique item that would give your mage a significant spell bonus? That's a lot harder.
Rescuing an NPC but paying with losing a finger which means a permanent malus on dexterity? Tough. Killing an NPC without witnesses for looting that shiny unique armor?
Rescuiing an NPC but sacrificing one of your beloved companions?

I like to play selfless heroes as well, but it would be a lot harder - and thus more satisfing - if I had to make choices like these.

It would be nice if from time to time selfish choice gives you short-term advantages but long-term disadvantages and vice versa. This souldn't be the general case though.
From your examples it turns to be a bit more oppositions between being greedy and doing some good action. It looks a bit like for you the idea of not doing a good action isn't evil, or you can bear it as non evil. For you, pick the sword and fail save the guy who dies, is different than kill the guy and pick his sword. But is it really different?

In my opinion it's a hard design choice. It opposes two elements many RPG players like a lot, greed and being good, for many players give up on one would generate an unhappy player.

A pure pointless evil choice isn't pointless, it removes the feeling to be forced to be good. And when you really have a choice even if a bit fake, then the good choice let you feel a bit more that you was good.

The interesting aspect is morale dilemma. A choice is really interesting when it involves a topic interesting the player at this point of the game, and for which choose among multiple choices is a dilemma. So the problem is to build and prepare the dilemma. I doubt a game can have plenty good dilemma choices. If a morale dilemma isn't well prepared, the player will pick more or less randomly. PoE failed multiple time on that, at least for me, and not always.

Is good versus greed a good morale dilemma choice? I don't think so, at best it evokes from distance the subject of price accepted for achieving a major sacred mission as save the world or some daughter. It's too vague.
 
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How did I miss this line?

Damn, can't find the rotfl smiley. All I know I don't need any more comedy today.

I would like to think people aren't evil to begin with - just get worn out by differences. I don't know, I just don't feel comfortable playing evil characters.. I would rather be a goody two shows, especially in games - maybe because you get compensated at least somewhat in the game, I suppose.
 
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