Pillars of Eternity - Too Many Words

Number of words?
I was not shocked by POE. I would have mind that in an action game or in Elite, though. Those "Walls of text" are not for everyone, maybe, but POE is certainly not the cup of tea of everyone.
Now frankly some of the writing and the last third of the game, that was a bit boring.
 
Two months ago I complained here about Brian Fargo celebration of Torment's 1.6 million words (single player game world record). I said that this record was not a reason to be proud of. More words don't mean a better game. Some people harshly disagreed.

I totally agree with Jeff and believe his text also applies to other developers and publishers who think that "the more words the better".
 
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Lots of games have to much text.

Not just in the game play but in general, when finding books etc.

But hey you don't have to read them all to finish the game.
 
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Too many words isn't a problem, but in Pillars it often felt too "dry", impersonal, that lack of sharp humor, far too descriptive ( almost like the writing you'll see with students in early high school who push for "grand style" in every sentence) and voice work was often out of sync with dialogue flow.
It was a miss they didn't hire a narrator for those soul reading sequences as well, for stronger impact( like in MotB or dream sequences in BG I), same with mute npc's to distinguish class/racial differences.
Morrowind had amazing lore stories, Witcher and Baldur's Gate II also did great here, particular with journal entries.
Hell, I even somehow enjoyed the writing in first Baldur's Gate more…even with everyone throwing those hilariously hyperbolic lines non stop.
 
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I mostly agree with the article although the problem is not the quantity but quality of texts as correctly pointed out by many others already. PoE is set in the new universe - learning about the new world should be exciting and fun - alas, it wasn't. I feel that Obsidian wrote the whole texts for themselves, not for the players.

In their minds they know what Eora is like, so they *fleshed it out* using lots of words - mind you with new vocab players aren't familiar with. They know exactly what the new words or locations are like. What they've written is perfect translation of what's in their heads… for themselves.

Players are left wondering what on earth all these new words mean or represents and there are so many new words in description of one new concept. I don't know about you guys but for me it felt like a badly written history book. No show but only tell through lots and lots of texts I am not familar with. This is almost a job of historian or archeologist decrypting ancient language except I am not interested in this civilisation anymore.

At least that's how I felt about PoE writing.
 
Only part of PoE that felt like "too many words" was the soul-reading of backer NPCs.
 
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On a serious note.

No!!!!

I have yet to find any game with to many words. If you are enjoying the game, you want to know everything about it and the world. If the game is so so you can just skim most of the writing and pick out key things you need to move on. If you dislike the game just stop playing and it doesn't matter what any of writing is.
 
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Jeff Vogel hit the nail on the head. Pillars of Eternity is ridden with lore-dumps which screams amateur-level worldbuilding. It clearly shows their writers are clueless on how to convey folklore to the player properly.

Vogel's writing accomplishes far more with far less. Loved the Vernian style of Escape from the Pit. :)
 
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I certainly didn't think PoE was to heavy on text, I quite liked it. At least when I realized what the "Backer NPC's" were and just stopped reading those. By the way, is there mods to simply remove all of those?
 
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When I was playing PoE I hadn't the impression of too much text. The obious superflous texts - the backer NPCs - I just skipped.
But indeed the article points out that the game fails in introsucing game mechanics and lore. It was all just too confusing (for me), too unstructered and in a lot of places too much information.
 
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The problem with Vogel's write-up is not that I disagree with the general message. Yes, PoE had too much unnecessary exposition, and it was often not clear whether I had to read that exposition to understand what is going on or whether it was the 20th repetition of something that had already been said before.

However, if you look at the specific examples Vogel brings up, the matter is not that clear-cut anymore. For example, his suggestion to replace the "might" description is certainly correct. However, that description needed to be longer, because it wanted to give players that come from (A)D&D a heads-up. "Might" is not just a fancy word to replace "strength" as it is known from the games that PoE claimed as its predecessors, and that's why the description had to make clear that "might" is important for casters - a very different idea from how AD&D handled this. A correct but short description is not enough to prevent confusion here.

It's funny how this works. The general gist of the article is okay, but the specifics…
 
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It's a fairly weak criticism if you ask me which fails to adequately consider the audience for this specific type of writing style. I like Jeff's games and generally simple writing approach well enough - but I would describe his style as mostly perfunctory with its sprinkling of dry quips and wry humour and certainly not in the same category as the more verbosely inclined tradition popularised by PS:T. But I digress, as the topic is Pillars of Eternity, not Jeff's works. :)

As described in the article, Hitting the "1 key" as fast as one can simply tells me that the writing in this particular game, wasn't for him. This is further reinforced by the fact that he blew through the entirety of the game in 20 hours which certainly doesn't mirror my own experience as for me, the game is simply much deeper than that.

His examples of attempting to pull apart the sections of character creation are entirely subjective and for me, not sufficiently argued as to be convincing. One might be more willing to accept his premise of course if one were so inclined against verbosely written games. Admittedly I'm somewhat biased as someone who has invested significant hours into PoE and enjoys the writing for the most part but I don't find his generalisations about "what an audience likes" at all compelling. Lore fans just might be able to recall the details that he couldn't on Ein Glenfath for instance and are more likely to appreciate the additional flavour or "purple prose".

A pragmatic and succinct style obviously has its place and virtues but forcing or homogenising such ideas and perspectives in cRPGs as a whole might not necessarily be the answer.

The only game in recent memory which has made me stop and reconsider if I have the time to adequately invest in it from a narrative and reading point of view was Inquisitor. This game had an extremely loquacious and detailed narrative to explore from multiple angles yet the game-play wasn't quite strong enough for me to keep me going as to make it all feel worth it. Never say never though; the premise for the game is still interesting so I may yet return to it.

As other posters have alluded to, there's no real "one size fits all" as far as the written word goes in role-playing games, particularly in narrative and lore exposition. Dragon Age: Origins' approach in using the codex to collect lore and information is another such example which players react differently to, as was Morrowind's quasi-encyclopedic NPCs.
I also think the expressive and wordy writing style of the mid-late period Ultima's isn't for everyone; some players enjoy such individual flair, others simply can't take to it. Thus, I don't think attempting to shoe-horn any one particular editing or writing style in games is necessarily the correct approach. It is much more dependent upon your perceived audience and how you work toward that.

In short, I think Obsidian were reasonably transparent about wanting to make a game for players who enjoy longer moments spent reading and this appeal for me at least, is plain to see. The merging influences of Torment and Icewind Dale (II especially in WM part II) are quite clear to me the more I play the game. I enjoy spending time thinking about the world I'm exploring and absorbing even the most insignificant details if that world is interesting and I like the game enough.

In personal PoE related gaming news; I'm ever so slowly approaching the end of my Path of the Damned run. I'll post another report in the Pillars forum once it's all wrapped up with some thoughts on the White March Part 2. :)
 
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^ Damn. Nice!

Pessi, I urge you to return to Inquisitor sometime. The exploration gets better the more you play, and the story, lore and inquisitive investigation-style gameplay really gets stronger. I love how much of the story is tied to exploration in a natural way.
 
Pessimeister's post is exactly the kind of over-written style found in some games that bores people. You can make your point faster and more clearly with half as many words. If your point is to talk down to your audience or try to impress with an overabundance of words, fine. Otherwise, edit for clarity over quantity.
 
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Pessimeister's post is exactly the kind of over-written style found in some games that bores people. You can make your point faster and more clearly with half as many words. If your point is to talk down to your audience or try to impress with an overabundance of words, fine. Otherwise, edit for clarity over quantity.

Ahh, I see. He should be using tersity to support the virtues of verbosity ;)

That makes a whole lot of sense!

That said, I'm glad you picked the former for your particular bit of bile.
 
To be honest, I was responding to the article in a sincere manner. You don't have to read it Zephyr, no-one was forcing you to. I don't write to entertain or impress people, but rather to express myself. If you don't like the way I do it, then simply scroll your mouse down further and skip it, no harm done. Those that wish to read it are naturally invited to do so.
 
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Ahh, I see. He should be using tersity to support the virtues of verbosity ;)

That makes a whole lot of sense!

That said, I'm glad you picked the former for your particular bit of bile.

No 'bile' involved or intended, merely making a comment on clarity in writing whether in games or posting. I have no personal axe to grind.
 
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To be honest, I was responding to the article in a sincere manner. You don't have to read it Zephyr, no-one was forcing you to. I don't write to entertain or impress people, but rather to express myself. If you don't like the way I do it, then simply scroll your mouse down further and skip it, no harm done. Those that wish to read it are naturally invited to do so.

I meant no personal insult to you, nor do I wish to start a flame war. I was making an observation on my preference in writing styles triggered, perhaps, by your post. I've always gravitated to writers who write directly and simply, like Elmore Leonard and Mark Twain. A quote from one of Twain's letters sums it up:

"I notice that you use plain, simple language, short words and brief sentences. That is the way to write English - it is the modern way and the best way. Stick to it; don't let fluff and flowers and verbosity creep in. When you catch an adjective, kill it. No, I don't mean utterly, but kill most of them - then the rest will be valuable. They weaken when they are close together. They give strength when they are wide apart. An adjective habit, or a wordy, diffuse, flowery habit, once fastened upon a person, is as hard to get rid of as any other vice.
- Letter to D. W. Bowser, 20 March 1880

Peace.
 
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