System Shock - Retrospective @ Resolution

DArtagnan said:

I get the graphics and controls thing - but level design? You gotta be kidding

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This will be difficult to explain as I am trying to explain why I felt such emotions but find it difficult to pinpoint exactly what's wrong.

It was common back then, that levels were designed as large 1-floor areas. In SS this became a large circular area where you were running around in circles, trying to unlock more pieces of the map. I often feel the designer have tried to "fill the circle". There's for example a long corridor in map 1 to the left that leads to a set of bars blocking your path.

Due to squeezing too much into the map, it ends up in a lot of pressurized areas with features and design that doesn't follow my logic. I found it easy to run past doors that I didn't knew were doors and I spent a lot of time running long distances with nothing in it when trying to solve unsolved problems. I often ended up running the wrong way and was forced to go back once I looked at the map. I found that to be confusing and even a bit boring.

Add the nuisance on top of that with the old graphics, the ancient combat system and controls that doesn't really follow modern standard, and the cumulative issues made me drop the game to be taken up at a later time.

JemyM said:

This will be difficult to explain as I am trying to explain why I felt such emotions but find it difficult to pinpoint exactly what's wrong.

It was common back then, that levels were designed as large 1-floor areas. In SS this became a large circular area where you were running around in circles, trying to unlock more pieces of the map. I often feel the designer have tried to "fill the circle". There's for example a long corridor in map 1 to the left that leads to a set of bars blocking your path.

Due to squeezing too much into the map, it ends up in a lot of pressurized areas with features and design that doesn't follow my logic. I found it easy to run past doors that I didn't knew were doors and I spent a lot of time running long distances with nothing in it when trying to solve unsolved problems. I often ended up running the wrong way and was forced to go back once I looked at the map. I found that to be confusing and even a bit boring.

Add the nuisance on top of that with the old graphics, the ancient combat system and controls that doesn't really follow modern standard, and the cumulative issues made me drop the game to be taken up at a later time.

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I have to say I disagree with your assesment of the maps.

They designed the space station and layout in a very logical fashion, and pretty much every single area is there for a reason - and the vast majority of them come into play in one way or the other. Oh, it's not like Bioshock where every single area is there to make the strongest impression possible. It's more about how a plausible space station would work - and how to represent a "realistic" space station, there will be areas that don't hand-hold you through some kind of Hollywood action sequence.

Much of it isn't apparent until later, because unlike modern shooters the game isn't really "level" based as much as it's one giant level divided into subsections for purposes of representing a real space station. It's one of the most evolved level designs in gaming and I can't immediately think of a single game to surpass it. The 1-floor areas you're referring to are - by far - not the only kind of area in the game. In fact, this was the among the first games to SERIOUSLY introduce huge spaces and multi-level areas without any kind of loading screen. Oh, it's true - the levels are loaded during the elevator sequences, but you hardly notice it, and each level is positively GIGANTIC in itself. Once you get to the hangar areas - you'll know what I mean about the sense of scale. Games like Doom had very basic and primitive levels in comparison.

With all that said, I'm not surprised the outdated visuals and complex controls put you off - and it IS a hard pill to swallow for most people.

Yeah, and I am normally though when it comes to ancient graphics. Every year I play at least a couple of ancient games, most recently Elvira II, and I am currently working on Dark Forces after finishing both Dark Forces II and it's expansion.

Im not sure I am buying your point that a real space station is built that way, because there's no logical reason why a station is made as a maze. Sure, it might contain lots of compressed rooms, and it would make the most out of the space it got, but it would still place important features that belongs to each other close to each other. It would also have benefit from having easy-to-spot in-game signs like "Medical Area", "Bridge" and "Storage", not unsigned locked doors. Had SS been made with modern graphics it would most likely have a level design that used it's design to make it easier to distinguish important features. Like Dead Space.

SS is not as bad as EoB2, but it suffers from the old "same textures everywhere" problem. I were once building a NWN module based on EoB2, and one of the most important difference between the original game and my module, was to bring the empty corridors a design that was really unique and distinguishable. An area that was abandoned a long time ago, did look abandoned a long time ago. An area that was frequently walked by guards, looked a lot like an area that was inhabitated.

This might sound small to you, but psychologically such details play a great role in modern game design.

JemyM said:

Yeah, and I am normally though when it comes to ancient graphics. Every year I play at least a couple of ancient games, most recently Elvira II, and I am currently working on Dark Forces after finishing both Dark Forces II and it's expansion.

Im not sure I am buying your point that a real space station is built that way, because there's no logical reason why a station is made as a maze. Sure, it might contain lots of compressed rooms, and it would make the most out of the space it got, but it would still place important features that belongs to each other close to each other. It would also have benefit from having easy-to-spot in-game signs like "Medical Area", "Bridge" and "Storage", not unsigned locked doors. Had SS been made with modern graphics it would most likely have a level design that used it's design to make it easier to distinguish important features. Like Dead Space.

SS is not as bad as EoB2, but it suffers from the old "same textures everywhere" problem. I were once building a NWN module based on EoB2, and one of the most important difference between the original game and my module, was to bring the empty corridors a design that was really unique and distinguishable. An area that was abandoned a long time ago, did look abandoned a long time ago. An area that was frequently walked by guards, looked a lot like an area that was inhabitated.

This might sound small to you, but psychologically such details play a great role in modern game design.

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I'm not saying they built a station as it would have been in reality.

I'm saying that's what they tried to do with the tools at hand.

Worked for me

I'm not sure why you think I'm unaware of what details can do for a game. We're talking about a game from 15 years ago, in an age where "true" 3D graphics were unheard of at that level. The level of sophistication of the Shock engine was FAR beyond anything else at the time, and it even simulated things like physics and advanced dynamic lighting several years before anything else.

I think I can cut it some slack in the "details" area.

JDR13 said:

I agree, the level design in System Shock has rarely been surpassed.

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I have to say I'm with those guys ... need to replay this, it has been a few years!

DArtagnan said:

I'm saying that's what they tried to do with the tools at hand.

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DArtagnan said:

I'm not sure why you think I'm unaware of what details can do for a game. We're talking about a game from 15 years ago, in an age where "true" 3D graphics were unheard of at that level. The level of sophistication of the Shock engine was FAR beyond anything else at the time, and it even simulated things like physics and advanced dynamic lighting several years before anything else.

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Which doesn't change what I said about "ancient level design". It's fairly easy to surpass the level design of SS with modern tools. And it have been surpassed, by SS2, by Bioshock and by Dead Space, each of them with a very similar story. Being a head of it's time isn't the same as being up to date and this IS level design from 15 years ago, even if it beats both Wolfenstein and DOOM.

JemyM said:

Which doesn't change what I said about "ancient level design". It's fairly easy to surpass the level design of SS with modern tools. And it have been surpassed, by SS2, by Bioshock and by Dead Space, each of them with a very similar story. Being a head of it's time isn't the same as being up to date and this IS level design from 15 years ago, even if it beats both Wolfenstein and DOOM.

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Your opinion is as valid as mine, of course.

That doesn't mean you're quite right in the head if you think Bioshock, Dead Space and System Shock 2 is at the same level. System Shock 2 is close, but way too linear.

Oh, and Bioshock and Dead Space are themepark rides with little or no consistency between levels. You're probably part of the younger audience, and as such might not appreciate the qualities of consistency and plausible level design.

But, to each his own - of course

Never played it but you guys piqued my interest. Damn you all, I'm trying to write a paper here

DArtagnan said:

You're probably part of the younger audience, and as such might not appreciate the qualities of consistency and plausible level design.

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When my gaming hobby begun, games like Zaxxon and PacMan was still modern. But I do not confuse nostalgia with maturity.

SveNitoR said:

Never played it but you guys piqued my interest. Damn you all, I'm trying to write a paper here

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Success!

I'm proud if I was somehow a part of System Shock expanding its audience by +1 human being.

JemyM said:

When my gaming hobby begun, games like Zaxxon and PacMan was still modern. But I do not confuse nostalgia with maturity.

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No, you just assume nostalgia based on your own lack of objective insight.

DArtagnan said:

No, you just assume nostalgia based on your own lack of objective insight.

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Beyond non-linearity, old-school apologetics is the only thing I have seen you arguing so far, not to mention these insults of "lack of objective insight" or "immaturity" for not having your perspective. Had you spoken from else than nostalgia you would most likely have been able to present something of more substance than this.

JemyM said:

Beyond non-linearity, old-school apologetics is the only thing I have seen you arguing so far, not to mention these insults of "lack of objective insight" or "immaturity" for not having your perspective. Had you spoken from else than nostalgia you would most likely have been able to present something of more substance than this.

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You're as closed minded in this thread as you are anywhere else with your blind crusades against anything you don't immediately agree with.

What people place right in front of you goes utterly unnoticed, and you find yourself incapable of having the courage to challenge your entrenched position.

You speak of insults and ignore your own - as if reality somehow changes because you can't face it.

I'm sure if you work on your facade, you will eventually be able to fool me into actually caring about your blindness. Then, maybe, the debate would be prolonged - but it'll take a lot of work and I doubt I represent THAT much entertainment.

JemyM said:

Had you spoken from else than nostalgia you would most likely have been able to present something of more substance than this.

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This is where I feel the need to say something.

I didn't play System Shock for the first time until about 2 years ago, which would be nearly 13 years after it was released. So I can assure you that nostalgia has nothing to do with me being able to recognize the overall brilliance of this game. It's a shame that some people can't remove their modern day goggles and see SS for what it is.

DArtagnan said:

...

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Unless you can begin presenting anything more than ad hominems im done with you.

JDR13 said:

I didn't play System Shock for the first time until about 2 years ago, which would be nearly 13 years after it was released. So I can assure you that nostalgia has nothing to do with me being able to recognize the overall brilliance of this game. It's a shame that some people can't remove their modern day goggles and see SS for what it is.

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I haven't said SS is a bad game. I said "I could clearly see how well executed the story is" and "the cumulative issues made me drop the game to be taken up at a later time".

I pointed out the problems that was too much to chew on around Christmas when I played it the first time, which caused me to place the game on hold.

JemyM said:

Unless you can begin presenting anything more than ad hominems im done with you.

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I'm willing to go far just for you to be done with me

Let's pretend I've done nothing in this thread except attack you personally, and you stop responding to my posts - deal?

DArtagnan said:

You're as closed minded in this thread as you are anywhere else with your blind crusades against anything you don't immediately agree with.

What people place right in front of you goes utterly unnoticed, and you find yourself incapable of having the courage to challenge your entrenched position.

You speak of insults and ignore your own - as if reality somehow changes because you can't face it.

I'm sure if you work on your facade, you will eventually be able to fool me into actually caring about your blindness. Then, maybe, the debate would be prolonged - but it'll take a lot of work and I doubt I represent THAT much entertainment.

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You do realize claiming to be universally agnostic and open minded to everything doesn't somehow make you intellectually superior to everyone else, yes? Especially when you hold opinions and views of your own and quite frankly possess the same "close minded" aspects as the rest of us; i.e. claiming that Jemy would have to be immature to not like/have some issue with aspects of a game that you enjoy.

All Jemy was pointing out was that these aspects of the game vis-a-vis visual aesthetic and level design would be better using modern tools - which I agree with. And guess what? My first video games were Final Fantasy 1 and the Legend of Zelda, back when I was three or four. My first PC games were the original Doom, Wolfenstein 3D, and my first PCRPG was probably one of the earlier Ultimas. You can recognize those games for being milestone achievements and still recognize they are, in fact, primitive. It's like saying the Wright brother's plane was ground breaking, but then saying the 777 is better. It's not a diss to the Wright brothers - in fact, they started the whole shebang - but it's a valid point of view.

System Shock is a classic and rightly hailed for being ahead of its time and visionary, but that doesn't mean that it's inappropriate for someone to criticize it from the viewpoint of someone who has played modern videogames. I think all he's arguing is that if this game was made with today's technology it would have been easier for him to fully get into and digest.

Rithrandil said:

You do realize claiming to be universally agnostic and open minded to everything doesn't somehow make you intellectually superior to everyone else, yes? Especially when you hold opinions and views of your own and quite frankly possess the same "close minded" aspects as the rest of us; i.e. claiming that Jemy would have to be immature to not like/have some issue with aspects of a game that you enjoy.

All Jemy was pointing out was that these aspects of the game vis-a-vis visual aesthetic and level design would be better using modern tools - which I agree with. And guess what? My first video games were Final Fantasy 1 and the Legend of Zelda, back when I was three or four. My first PC games were the original Doom, Wolfenstein 3D, and my first PCRPG was probably one of the earlier Ultimas. You can recognize those games for being milestone achievements and still recognize they are, in fact, primitive. It's like saying the Wright brother's plane was ground breaking, but then saying the 777 is better. It's not a diss to the Wright brothers - in fact, they started the whole shebang - but it's a valid point of view.

System Shock is a classic and rightly hailed for being ahead of its time and visionary, but that doesn't mean that it's inappropriate for someone to criticize it from the viewpoint of someone who has played modern videogames. I think all he's arguing is that if this game was made with today's technology it would have been easier for him to fully get into and digest.

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Because you agree with Jemy, it doesn't mean that he's any less close-minded in general. Anyway, my opinion of Jemy's persona on this board doesn't stem from this thread, it's based on several threads in which he's displayed the inability to read and respond to what people actually say and go on as if they hadn't said anything beyond a tiny subset which he then chooses to focus on.

I have no issue with his criticism of System Shock beyond disagreeing with it, and I did in fact already concede that the game is hard to swallow because of its dated visuals and controls. But if I'm going to have a debate about the merits or faults of something, people better acknowledge my points instead of ignoring that I made them.

I'm not sure if this is the place to discuss personal defects in general, though, but if you open a thread about that somewhere more appropriate, I guess I could join in.

About System Shock, I don't think anyone here has claimed it wouldn't benefit from modern technology. What I'm saying is, and let's see if you're capable of getting this instead of letting your bias against me get in the way again (which is tiresome), that the game had fantastic level design - and it would STILL have fantastic level design if it was released today.

The game is anything but primitive - but if you can't accept certain limitations based on 15 years old technology - like flat surface textures - then you're being unreasonable.

You are irrationally aggressive DArtagnan, and it's uncalled for. It's a game for crying out loud. I got out there and grabbed a 15 year old game since I convinced myself to play it ages ago, and I already stated that I will force myself through the game later on despite my issues with the technology.
That should be enough to make you cool down and not hurl strawman prejudices like that. I might even be more into retro gaming, and more forgiving, than you are.

You need to learn some humility. Learn how to count to 10 before attacking someone ok?