Spiderweb Games - On Making Lots of People Angry

For example, during 70's or end of 60's, the Who made an interview quite cynical and ironical about the public, like mention in concert people don't want good music but loud music. And nobody would start hate them because of that, as soon as the music is good.

I'll skip a long history to end with modern music stars sweet with their fans and constantly licking their ass, and the gaga is quite a symbol of that. No matter the music, they have to lick asses. The problem is too many fans are giving too much importance to that sort of licking stuff, the music quality is at a second plan for them.

Dasale said:

Insane? For me the insane is have piety and indulgence for the codex aggressive suckers but none for a game developer.

But yeah like I mentioned already, people want ass suckers, not people making music, or something, or making games.

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People want gamemakers to make games, not excuses. If he (you?) spent half the time he whines on his blog about how unfair it is people don't like his shitty games into making them better he'd have far fewer complaints.

Dasale said:

For example, during 70's or end of 60's, the Who made an interview quite cynical and ironical about the public, like mention in concert people don't want good music but loud music. And nobody would start hate them because of that, as soon as the music is good.

I'll skip a long history to end with modern music stars sweet with their fans and constantly licking their ass, and the gaga is quite a symbol of that. No matter the music, they have to lick asses. The problem is too many fans are giving too much importance to that sort of licking stuff, the music quality is at a second plan for them.

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If he really didn't care he wouldn't say anything, or he might respond to individual complaints directly. He does care, he cares a lot. He also knows he is looking like a sellout. So he throws up this distracting BS to try and discredit his detractors.

If he wants to make crap games and thinks they are the best thing ever, fine and I appluad him for sticking to his guns, but it's obvious he's only making his recent changes in the belief he will become overnight millionaire by trying to make games like bioware and bethesda are making. But since he doesn't get his market and doesn't even get why bethesda and bioware do what they do and since he doesn't have that budget it seems like a pretty stupid idea to anyone with a brain.

ManWhoJaped said:

People want gamemakers to make games, not excuses. If he (you?) spent half the time he whines on his blog about how unfair it is people don't like his shitty games into making them better he'd have far fewer complaints.

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I agree with that and that's what Jeff understood the day after. On start Jeff shouldn't have read forums like codex, and never ever answer here. Codex isn't the right place to attempt do that and even in more civilized places it's a high challenge communication task, I doubt Jeff is able master that.

But myself I look at it from the humans point of view. I see Jeff just as a developer, there's ton when you dig more ios games, he is just a human trying make RPG, and I appreciate a lot he behaves as a human and not like an efficient commercial robot.

EDIT: During the 90's or even end of 80's the new generations learned the courage to struggle against big capitalist entertainment companies, that happened mainly in Music and their hero was anti big companies. Now that is mandatory, but who will be able face the new Ogre, the masses? Probably nobody, ever, no more heroes.

Anyway, here is the reality.

Big companies have moved to consolized games.
Big companies make lots of money.
Vogel sees they make lots of money.
Vogel starts blindly imitating them.
But the reason they do what they do is because of consoles, not because PC users want this crap.
He's so stupid he even put achievements in, which even game makers HATE.
No one wants these 'features' and it is not going to make him any money unless he releases on consoles (which requires millions in budget, minimum).
So then he gets a lot of complaints that he is consolizing his game (without even being on a console!!!).
So he skirts the main issue and picks out some little issues to set up a straw man.
Then he beats on the straw man, and he uses RPG Codex as a scape goat.
Basically he's saying it's only a few people from a troublemaker site who are complaining (even though that's not true) and their complaints are crap (which is untrue, he carefully avoided the real complaints.
Then he claims he is the real deal and doing what he wants and that's what indie is all about.
Even though the reality is he is trying hard to sell out but too stupid to realize that the changes he's making aren't going to do him any favors.
His real problem is lack of quality around the board, halfassed features, halfassed everything.
Now that is partly a budget problem, not much you can do about that, but if he were honest he'd recognize that and point out what's good about his games not try to sell us this incredible line of BS.

I haven't played his latest game, but some of his older ones.

I've always been impressed with the degree Jeff communicates and shares his thoughts and his method/process and philosophy about the games he makes and RPGs in general.

I might not agree 100% with every word or idea, but I sure respect him for basically doing his all to make a living doing something he's passionate at and enjoys and is good at. (he's a hell of a better programmer than I am lol)

So, he got on a roll and his comments sort of snowballed…it happens.

As an "artist" he will never please everyone who comes across his work, that said…it would at times get tiresome of negativity and comments made by those who might not fully see the reasoning behind the aspects and issues they complain about.

I'd imagine you'd try to be as tactful as possible as often as possible…but over time (years) there's gonna be some times that it just strikes you more than others.

I like reading his thoughts and views and hope he continues to be as open and honest.

ps - I actually enjoy "achievements" lol I don't make them a priority unless I've finished questing, but I like them lurking in the background and accomplishing them while I play a game normally.

@BoyWhoWhined
You're delusional. You don't like the game. And? Others do. So it's more Icewind Dale than it is Fallout or Planescape Torment. Big deal. People liked those too. You aren't better in any way for him to only want to cater to you, and you got 17 years of him doing that (not that you were ever happy about it). All your descriptions in that post aren't what he's doing, they're merely your delusions, because you think you're in his head, when truthfully, your head is up your butt and you don't know the guy. You don't know him because you play his games, you don't know him because you read his blog, you don't know him because you have nothing better to do than devote your life to this shit. If he wanted to go mainstream he'd make a real time Diablo like hack and it would have been easier to make and way more successful to boot. See Torchlight, imagine it in 2D, and that's what he could have done. He likes Bioware games, you don't, so what? Maybe he took a few ideas here and there (not that Bioware did them first, but anyway, let's play along for now), big deal, he's not a retard (as his previous games you also enjoyed attest to) to believe he can get their audience while being 10 years behind in graphics and having no budget for audio and whatever else as you seem to think he doesn't see. If he really wanted to follow them he would have started doing so before even the first Avernum trilogy. Just stop making a fool out of yourself.

Al3xand3r said:

@BoyWhoWhined
You're delusional. You don't like the game. And? Others do. So it's more Icewind Dale than it is Fallout or Planescape Torment. Big deal. People liked those too. You aren't better in any way for him to only want to cater to you, and you got 17 years of him doing that (not that you were ever happy about it). All your descriptions in that post aren't what he's doing, they're merely your delusions, because you think you're in his head, when truthfully, your head is up your butt and you don't know the guy. You don't know him because you play his games, you don't know him because you read his blog, you don't know him because you have nothing better to do than devote your life to this shit. If he wanted to go mainstream he'd make a real time Diablo like hack and it would have been easier to make and way more successful to boot. See Torchlight, imagine it in 2D, and that's what he could have done. He likes Bioware games, you don't, so what? Maybe he took a few ideas here and there (not that Bioware did them first, but anyway, let's play along for now), big deal, he's not a retard (as his previous games you also enjoyed attest to) to believe he can get their audience while being 10 years behind in graphics and having no budget for audio and whatever else as you seem to think he doesn't see. If he really wanted to follow them he would have started doing so before even the first Avernum trilogy. Just stop making a fool out of yourself.

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So is it news or not? Is this a news discussion site or just a vogel fansite? You can make an argument it's not news but it is posted as news and this is nominally a news discussion site. I don't know the guy but neither do you and even less do you know me.

So a guy makes a post obviously meant to be controversial and it stirs up controversy. What a jerk I am to be the one to point out how ridiculous this clown is.

You say he's that smart but though just like you my only exposure to the guy is the stupid things he says every week that get posted here or other news sites, and I disagree. If all the things he says are genuine he really is that stupid and more so. I believe most of it is much more self serving than that just like other pretend diaries where developers make apologies for the failings of their games or try to make their flaws seem like strengths. I don't mind marketing but if you are dishonest like that you get just what you deserve when people call you on it.

Either way the guy has gone into a direction many people don't like. Instead of manning up and facing the music we get this excuse fest. So either deal with people not liking your game direction and the bad press you get, or else change to another direction, or stop making games.

Don't whine to the internet to say it's wrong not to like your game. Oh, my mistake! It was a good idea you ruined everything halfway decent in your games and your new one is total crap instead of merely mediocre like usual.

ManWhoWhine, can you remind me what's wrong in Avadon, concrete points please? that abstract blah blah is hard to stick on.

To other: Those philosophers are so smart but so hard to follow.

Why are people making personal comments/questions addressed to Jeff HERE?? I don't know if he reads our forums, but shouldn't all the personal stuff be posted at HIS blog/site!! WE can discuss the criticisms of the game and his response to them, but any advice for him seems wasted here.

It's so impersonal that I suppose I should feel concerned as I post a bit here. To be clear I wrote sometimes Jeff because it's shorter than Spiderweb and can't remember his first name (or second, the other name I mean).

I don't care chit chat with Spiderweb.

I find this particular conversation fascinating. I liked Jeff's previous games pretty well, enough to buy a few of them even, but I never really thought of them as amazing, just fun. I finished the Avadon demo last night, and, once again, I thought it was pretty fun. The decision to use a skill tree didn't really affect my opinion too much, and the combat is at least turn based and somewhat similar to his past games. I liked the game enough that I purchased it, partially to support Jeff, but also because the game is fun to me. I'm sorry his comments made so many people angry, but he has consistently made quality games over the years, and I hope he continues to. Looking at the watch as an entity, it seems like the tone of this website is changing a lot, too. Personal attacks on each other seem totally out there, and they're definitely not fun to read. Hope we can continue the debate civilly.

josephwatson said:

I find this particular conversation fascinating. I liked Jeff's previous games pretty well, enough to buy a few of them even, but I never really thought of them as amazing, just fun. I finished the Avadon demo last night, and, once again, I thought it was pretty fun. The decision to use a skill tree didn't really affect my opinion too much, and the combat is at least turn based and somewhat similar to his past games. I liked the game enough that I purchased it, partially to support Jeff, but also because the game is fun to me. I'm sorry his comments made so many people angry, but he has consistently made quality games over the years, and I hope he continues to. Looking at the watch as an entity, it seems like the tone of this website is changing a lot, too. Personal attacks on each other seem totally out there, and they're definitely not fun to read. Hope we can continue the debate civilly.

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Fully agree with you josephwatson.
I've been out of high school for 30 years, don't want to go back, that's why I like it here.

ManWhoJaped said:

What really gets me is that even at selling out he's incompetent. XBox achievements are there to support microsoft's live nonsense and no one would use them if they didn't have to. Shoving them into your game thinking it will make you a million bucks somehow makes my head spin.

And before telling me yet again to make my own game instead of criticizing others, take your own advice about criticism and STFU.

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Um ... you are pretty much completely wrong.
- Avadon doesn't have " XBox achievements ". Wrong.
- No MS Live support. Wrong again.
- Usage - achievements are HUGELY popular, and the basis of success for many games. Wrong once more.
- Medals in games are different ... and you really have to think about where this game is headed and see why it makes sense.

I get his frustration - and honestly those who don't should spend some time away from sites like this one and the codex and step back and realize how correct the recent quote was that (paraphrasing from memory) "if a developer could give RPG gamers a bag of infinite RPG goodness that would produce every wish for any sort of RPG feature they ever wanted ... they would complain about the color of the bag".

Pretty much dead on.

I agree with you Mike and I do agree with what he had to say. No one bitches louder than the old-school rpg crowd who have mostly been abandoned by the AAAs. There is a lot of hostility towards that.

Dive into the Games Workshop Forms or even Blood Bowl forums and you'll see the same thing. We feel we are being abandoned (which we are) in favor of the "new" and "shiny"

I grew up with games you needed to read to the manual to understand. The games were turnbased (a key hot spot for me), streamling the old-school goodness to make it appeal to the masses…..you know all the old arguments, but to point out a fact here the AAAs have abandoned us and the indies have become a place to go to when we want some of the old-school gaming back.

In short we get pissed sometimes so sue us. We like the kinds of games that made us use our minds instead of our freaking twitch fingers for an old-school rpg experience. Doesn't mean we probably won't buy it.

Now that you can understand where they are coming from. I still say I do agree with him. You can please some of the people some of the time, but not all of the people all of the time. It's never going to happen.

What he messed up was targeting a website (notorious for it's hate) and quoted the over and over and over again. Making all of his example from that one website showing how they are the only bad guys.

How hard would it to be to go around pluck some posts from other sites as well and NOT NAME THEM in any shape of form.

He could have just said I looked around to see how my game was holding up in the forums and here are a few examples of posts from some of them :

There he didn't name where he got the post from. Sure someone might say it was from rpgcodex, rpgwatch, gamebanshee or wherever they were talking about his game. But he didn't name anyone then.

It just seems beyond idiotic to say, "Hey, RPGCodex!!! You SUCK" He does realize that those are his fans over there and I don't care how many people bitch and moan about it over there you will still find his fans there.

But that is neither here nor there. He apologized already. It's over as far I'm concerned.

Not old school concern in my case.

My concern is about the game industry not only not drawing advantage of the technological advancement to enhance the RP support computers can provide but also withdrawing from the previous achievements that were made in terms of serving a RP experience.

I'd gladly support any riddance of an old school feature if it does serve RPing. This is not what has happened.

Funnily enough, one of the convenient characteristization of cRPGs is the character developpment, one feature I want to be gone as it grows more and more inadequate.

In ME1, taking a seasoned soldier from boot camp to elite did not serve RP.
In ME2, even though Bioware made an effort to explain how, growing once again a hero from boot camp to elite was inadequate.
In ME3, no boot camp from elite for me please.

But as this feature looks like it the last resort characteristic (game with that feature in are de facto RPGs), I am under the impression developpers can not get rid of it because it is their last evidence they are still developping RPGs.

I own a ton of Spiderweb games, but I'm not Jeff's ideal player. I find most of his games rehash WAY too much story to be enjoyable. The fact that the graphics are over 20 years old is very annoying. Honestly, he has some of the worst graphics of all time. I've got Jeremy Soule playing in the background because Jeff isn't a big music guy.

That said, Avadon has been moderately enjoyable for me.

I like the fact that instead of having one huge sprawling world, that you're constantly moving across, instead there are several small regions that you'll visit multiple times.

I think I like the new skill system a little better too. Though there are less skills, you have to think about where to put your points because you won't come close to maxing out everything.

Companions actually have prejudices against certain countries within the Pact and taking certain companions on a particular mission can change your options. Sometimes a fight gets avoided or sometimes a peaceful situation can become a battle if you have the wrong party member.

I like the added enchant options, but so far the enchantments have been so weak as to not really make any difference. I'm hopeful latter stones will be more powerful.

I'm only through to where you resolve the Beast issue. I found the end of that quest to be quite disappointing. I wanted an option to choose sides there, and wasn't given one. My guess is that the enemy would have wiped me in one round, but I wanted the choice I'm not sure how big the demo was because if I invest more than an hour or two in the game, I just buy it. I was enjoying it enough to spend $25.

There is enough differences here for me to purchase Avadon. I just hope Jeff doesn't screw up the sequels. My hope is that he won't keep rehashing the same NPC's in the next incarnation. It WOULD be cool to do work for some of your companions in the next game, but I wouldn't reuse anyone else. Same with the cities. Rehash Avadon fortress but every other location should be totally new. I'd bump the party back up to four too. Three seems a little light.