Mass Effect 3 - Twice the dialogue of the first two games?

The problem with DA2's combat is the fact that it's not tactial at all, unlike DAO. Sure it might be fun bashing buttons but that's not the type of fights appropriate for this kind of game.

Also the term RPG today is not well defined. I know "roleplay" means smth different for everyone but calling Borderlands RPG just because it has loot and stats is just silly.
 
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DA2 has more C&C hence branches than any of those games.

Except that the consequences are minimal to non-existent. The game has plenty of dialog choice but often they amount to the same or nearly the same result. I really have a hard time calling it a C&C game. It's more like a game where you can choose different reactions to various dialog and events.

Part of the reasons for this is probably the rushed development cycle that necessitated shortcuts, but the game design is also in part to blame. The skipping over years forces bottlenecks where certain events must happen no matter what.

The problem with DA2's combat is the fact that it's not tactial at all, unlike DAO. Sure it might be fun bashing buttons but that's not the type of fights appropriate for this kind of game.

I very much agree with this statement. The earlier mentioned idea that the hard mode is tactical does not wash with me either. I don't think randomly dropping waves of enemies out of the sky without care for placement but having them with ramped up hit points and damage so you actually have to pay attention to survive equates to tactical combat.
 
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I agree that C&C in DA2 are weak compared to DAO but I believe they are on par with KOTOR and lot better than NWN. Having said that, DA2 has so far given me the "illusion" that somehow my C&C do matter.

What do you mean when you say its not "tactical" ?

I don't know about you guys but DA2 combat feel tactical to me, I am very much micro managing my character and my party. I am playing in normal as well. I tend to die if I don't micro manage party where you get multiple waves with "mini bosses" (may be I am not good as you guys) . I think combat in KOTOR and NWN are lot easier than DA2 and less tactical. In KTOR I never bothered with managing my companions during battles.

But I do agree with the point that DA2 is weak compared to DAO and it does feel like Bio spend lot less time on the game. Bio did spend lot of time and effort into ME2 however so far I am enjoying DA2 lot better than ME2.
 
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Part of what makes combat tactical to me is being able to see how many enemies you are facing and what kind (ie is it something you've faced before?) from the start. In a top down/isometric/over the shoulder type game for me it's also very much being able to see the placement of the enemies and your characters in relation to them and make your moves accordingly.

Managing combat in a party based game is somewhat similar to combat in some simulation games, albeit with individuals instead of units. If you take away the element of being able to see what you are up against and where, then combat basically just becomes a simple arena where you fight one enemy or group of enemies, then the next, then the next etc.
 
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So most hate and complaining is from people who never played the game huh? I have played it twice with the added dlc and it still feels the same to me. Its not the worst game I ever played but it still feels like something is missing when playing.
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Well I never said most, I just said often. I've definitely seen alot of irrational hate from people who admitted to never playing the game (though not necesarilly on these forums). I've also seen reasonable balanced complaints by people who clearly understood the game. It sounds like your complaints would be of the second type and I don't necesarily disagree with them.

As for tactical combat, I actually found that not knowing where future waves of enemies might come from adds a tactical layer rather then removes it. Putting your melee up front and your ranged in the back isn't exactly rocket science. When you actually have to think about how you will react to a dynamic battle field that makes your decisions a lot more challenging. I mean in the real world no one ever goes into a matter really knowing everything about their enemy The ability to react and anticipate is what seperates a good tactician from a bad one.

But I still think that the wave of enemies were way over done, they should have had some fights where you see all your enemies at once and some where they come in waves.
 
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If you play on hard or nightmare it requires tons of strategy to succeed. I'm not really going to debate that, because it is a fact. If you play in those modes and run around whacky-whacky style you won't last 30 seconds.

People seem to think because DA2 is flawed it is automatically terrible, or because it is faster it is automatically an action game. I find these conclusions pretty preposterous.

I failed to find where anyone claimed DA2 was an action game… However, it was bland and streamlined to the point that it was no longer a fun RP experience for me.

DA2 was not enjoyable for many people, for some it was even terrible. The technical flaws like area reuse or parachuting/spawning enemies might have been a big issue for some. But that was tangent to my main issue(s), I just didn't find the gameplay engaging or entertaining. The game felt too "accessible".

Admittedly, the skill system in DA:O was poorly conceived and/or implemented, that is hardly reason enough to remove it. In DAO lock picking was both a function of cunning and it's corresponding talent(which should have been a skill). The equation was something along the lines of: cunning-10+(deft hands level * 10). So even in DA:O a character with 70 cunning and 0 in the lock picking talent could still open all locks… That makes very little sense much like what's going on in DA2(unless we are to use our imagination and assume the PC learned the basics of lock picking early on, even then a basic lock is nothing like an advanced lock). It's like assuming an incredible athlete will be competitive in a sport he has zero training in… FWIW, I disliked certain game mechanics or how they were implemented in DA:O. IMHO, it would have been more believable if skills were acquired or at a minimum advanced through trainers(EG Gothic).

What about alchemy/crafting? It too was also poorly implemented and/or conceived in DA:O, thus in DA2 it was streamlined to the point of obsolescence… Why bother finding the handful of ingredients scattered about? How on earth(or Thedas) will finding a plant or two here and there allow for an alchemist or poison maker to mint a limitless quantity?

A game universe doesn't have to be "realistic", that is often boring. But it should be consistent and above all else follow it's own physics/lore/mechanics(or in other words it should be plausible). When enemy combatants don't have access to the same abilities as the PC something is amiss. For example, Hawke and company can backflip/jump through the air and/or teleport to close the gap between opponents. IIRC no human or elf enemies/combatants could do the same.

There are, no real choices, almost zero branching in the game/story… All roads lead to Rome - it is on rails aside from some superficial stuff. For a game taking place almost exclusively in one city they failed to give you, as the agent within the story, the ability to affect the world around you. Which is inexcusable since this wasn't a big wide open world, such C&C could have been easier to implement. A good city RPG would have allowed me to handle the Qunari in a number of ways. Maybe I'm RPing a xenophobe or Chantry zealot, why not side with the other zealots and kill the giant freaks first? Maybe I want fame and glory or realize the qunari are having a destabilizing affect and wish to take action? Meredith/Orsino and Anders - why must their conflicts play out the same? Because the game lacks depth/branching. Which is fine for some, but don't claim it has meaningful C&C either…

Lets not forget the whole mages vs templar conflict. Imagine rolling a party with a mage PC, anders and merrill. You are literally blowing up people in the street and the templars do/say nothing?!? That really breaks immersion, and the whole blood mage stabbing through the belly animation is pure non-sense. Hey guys let me inflict a mortal wound to enhance my magical capabilities.


My definition of RPG is pretty irrelevant, though I will provide it below. The point is that you do not define what an RPG is and then it becomes law. You say that without a firm definition the term has no meaning, but obviously that is an exaggeration just to make some kind of snarky jab. RPG implies stats, exploration, dialogue trees and other such things, even if the focus on those things varies in intensity from one RPG to another.

I'm willing to stop saying that ME series is not an RPG, if you're willing to stop labeling it as such… :p

I guess if I had to define the term it would be any game where your choices significantly effect the gameplay. That allows you to choose a role, which then somehow makes the game different than if you had chosen a different role. The choices offered to you could be in the realm of stats, story decision, class or even the order you go through the game. Mass Effect offers a ton of choice and ability to create a role.

If an RPG is streamlined to the point that it no longer captures the spirit behind the stats, exploration or dialogue then it is no longer a good RPG. Where does the role, not character, of Shepard affect ME1/2 game experience? Outside of combat(which is already very limited since some powers have no affect on armored, shielded or barrier opponents) where does Sheps role affect gameplay?
 
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Well first off I wanted to say that while I actually liked DA2 quite a bit more then you, I do agree with many of your specific criticisms of it.

As for your statement on ME2, well whether or not you feel something captures the spirit of a game is very subjective, certainly many people think that ME2 does. But even if it didn't, this would make it as you say a bad RPG….but still a RPG. As for playing a role, it makes a huge difference in combat. If an RPG is required to have your role make a difference out of combat, then games like Wizardy and Might and Magic would not be RPGs.

If an RPG is streamlined to the point that it no longer captures the spirit behind the stats, exploration or dialogue then it is no longer a good RPG. Where does the role, not character, of Shepard affect ME1/2 game experience? Outside of combat(which is already very limited since some powers have no affect on armored, shielded or barrier opponents) where does Sheps role affect gameplay?
 
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Well I never said most, I just said often. I've definitely seen alot of irrational hate from people who admitted to never playing the game (though not necesarilly on these forums).

Well to a point I can understand people who really liked the first game and got excited about the prospect of a sequel being upset to find out the sequel is not so much like the original after all. I don't wish to get back into that whole 'Is it reasonable to expect the sequel to be like the original' argument, but regardless of whether someone thinks it is or not, people did it.

I would normally encourage someone to at least play the game they are criticizing, however as a fan of DA:O I bought DA2 and really regret having done so.

I think some people are upset that there was this game they really liked and wanted to see more of and instead now the series has turned into this awesome button for the rest of us type game. I think that's valid even not having played the game, however there does also come a time when you have to just say Okay, they aren't catering to what I want anymore and move on. And yes I do realize the irony of that statement as I myself am sitting here bitching about DA2. :p

But I still think that the wave of enemies were way over done, they should have had some fights where you see all your enemies at once and some where they come in waves.

I think the idea itself can work well if it was done in a more realistic manner and used much more sparingly. Some games do have reinforcments arrive or enemies that were hidden and reveal themselves etc. In some cases that can make for interesting combat situations. I just think the implementation of it here, like most of the game really, was overused and done in an unrealistic, over the top manner.
 
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Well first off I wanted to say that while I actually liked DA2 quite a bit more then you, I do agree with many of your specific criticisms of it.

As for your statement on ME2, well whether or not you feel something captures the spirit of a game is very subjective, certainly many people think that ME2 does. But even if it didn't, this would make it as you say a bad RPG….but still a RPG. As for playing a role, it makes a huge difference in combat. If an RPG is required to have your role make a difference out of combat, then games like Wizardy and Might and Magic would not be RPGs.

I agree with you to a point(wizardry/M&M reference), but the combat in ME2 isn't really diverse either... Also worth mentioning ME2 is supposed to be a cinematic story driven space opera, so there is a lot more going for it than just combat.
 
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Getting back to the tactical combat thing, I suppose it's one of those subjective things like what is a 'role playing game' exactly. There are lots of definitions.

To me, tactical combat is more than just combat where you use tactics in the same way that I consider a role playing game to be more than just a game where you play a role. I would say that most games have combat that has the player make use of tactics to some degree, even button mashers.

When I think of tactical combat I think of seeing a playing field and the players and making your moves accordingly. It has elements in common with strategy games and even board games like chess and checkers. I think of tacticians like Sun Tzu and The of Art War. To know your enemy is to know yourself etc.

To me, it's not about reacting and finding ways to survive on the fly, although at times that may be necessary, it's primarily about sizing up the enemy and the battlefied, about planning and strategy.
 
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If you honestly don't notice the difference from playing them then I don't think anything I can say will change your mind.

Classic deflection.

I'm not saying they're the same game, I am saying they are the same type of game. Nothing you have said shows otherwise.
 
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The problem with DA2's combat is the fact that it's not tactial at all, unlike DAO. Sure it might be fun bashing buttons but that's not the type of fights appropriate for this kind of game.

That's just a complete mischaracterization of the game honestly. If you just mash buttons in DA2 you will die, over and over again. I played it on hard so maybe normal is super easy by comparison, but I had to manage my party, I had to pause and plan, I had to keep my party in the right spots. It's a tactical party-based RPG, there is absolutely no question about that. It is not a whacky-whacky action RPG like Gothic.

The DLC is even more tactical because the battles are much better design wise and the difficulty is even greater. I dare anyone here to beat the last boss of Legacy without tactics. It would be impossible.
 
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That's just a complete mischaracterization of the game honestly. If you just mash buttons in DA2 you will die, over and over again. I played it on hard so maybe normal is super easy by comparison, but I had to manage my party, I had to pause and plan, I had to keep my party in the right spots. It's a tactical party-based RPG, there is absolutely no question about that. It is not a whacky-whacky action RPG like Gothic.

Have you ever actually played Gothic? The same thing you're trying to explain about DA2 would also apply to that game. You wouldn't win a single fight in Gothic if you tried to simply run up to things and "whacky-whacky" at them.
 
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Have you ever actually played Gothic? The same thing you're trying to explain about DA2 would also apply to that game. You wouldn't win a single fight in Gothic if you tried to simply run up to things and "whacky-whacky" at them.

I think the moral of the story is even action games can be very tactical :)

Its bit like chess and boxing really, at a certain level both requires strategy, tactics and skill to win.
 
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Classic deflection.

I'm not saying they're the same game, I am saying they are the same type of game. Nothing you have said shows otherwise.

I really don't give a hot damn what you call it. You are a debate type who tries to win at the internets. I'm not.

The bottom line is that the differences were obvious to me, clearly they were not to you so as you are fond of noting, it seems to be a subjective thing.

If you are genuinely curious and not merely baiting in order to try to 'win' a verbal duel with your superior logic, then there are many, many posts here and especially at the Bioware forum where people detail the various areas they find Dragon Age 2 to be different and deficient from previous Bioware games.
 
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Have you ever actually played Gothic? The same thing you're trying to explain about DA2 would also apply to that game. You wouldn't win a single fight in Gothic if you tried to simply run up to things and "whacky-whacky" at them.

Of course I have played Gothic, the point was it has skill-based combat. You can't just spam the attack button but in the end you win by being a better sword swinger than your opponents. In DA2 you win by managing an entire party tactically, placing your chess pieces and managing your attacks and AoE.

I get extremely frustrated when people act like it's a hack n' slash game. Either the normal setting is really completely different or people are completely blinded by the animation speed.
 
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I really don't give a hot damn what you call it. You are a debate type who tries to win at the internets. I'm not.

The bottom line is that the differences were obvious to me, clearly they were not to you so as you are fond of noting, it seems to be a subjective thing.

If you are genuinely curious and not merely baiting in order to try to 'win' a verbal duel with your superior logic, then there are many, many posts here and especially at the Bioware forum where people detail the various areas they find Dragon Age 2 to be different and deficient from previous Bioware games.

Still no examples from you.
 
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Do you have to get the last word even when someone is telling you they don't want to debate you?

You keep replying to me too there bud. I am just pointing out your hypocrisy. You say DA2 is obviously a completely different style of game, yet you can't give one reason why when asked.
 
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You keep replying to me too there bud. I am just pointing out your hypocrisy. You say DA2 is obviously a completely different style of game, yet you can't give one reason why when asked.

I'm not getting into your back and forth nonsense. Since you frequent this forum and the Bioware one you've seen it discussed over and over.

I'm over this. Once again you win at the internets. Have fun with your little online victory. :rolleyes:
 
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